Syria and "Mission Accomplished"

THE ABSURD TIMES

Syria and 'Mission Accomplished'

Just to counter the video we got from American Media, about 10 minutes or so into this clip is the faces of those liberated from American "Rebels" and their reaction.  Unfortunately, I could not just clip the one shot of about 2 minutes, but you can fat forward if you have the tools and resources. 

https://publish.dvlabs.com/democracynow/360/dn2018-0413.mp4

Now, for the transcript of the video: this is the most sane analysis or report on what is really going on there that I have been able to find anywhere.  It reminds me of what I might expect from Horkheimer or Adorno if they were around.  I am just going to post it without further comment:

As the United Nations Security Council holds an emergency session over the growing prospect of a war between Russia and the U.S., after President Trump threatened U.S. strikes in response to an alleged chemical weapons attack in Douma, we get response from Syrian-Canadian writer Yazan al-Saadi. "Let's remind everyone that the U.S. is striking Syria already. You have more than 2,000 soldiers on the ground. There are bases." He adds, "For me, as a Syrian, I see it as an occupation, just like how I see the Russians are an occupation on the country." Regarding the alleged chemical attack in Syria, he says, "This ignores the fact that most deaths are happening through conventional means," such as airstrikes.

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Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: We begin today's show in Syria, where Syrian government forces have taken full control of the Damascus suburb of Eastern Ghouta, in a major victory for President Bashar al-Assad. The capture of Eastern Ghouta followed a Russian-brokered deal that saw the last remaining rebel fighters granted safe passage to a rebel-held area in northern Syria. Human rights groups estimate some 1,700 civilians were killed in heavy fighting, after Syrian forces, backed by Russia, launched an offensive on Eastern Ghouta in February. The U.N. says food, water and medicine are in short supply for those left behind. This is U.N. humanitarian adviser Jan Egeland.

JAN EGELAND: There is, by our count, still at least 100,000 people in Douma, and they need desperately our help. We have been prevented from going there. We have had very little supplies to there. And now, hopefully, there is finally an agreement between the armed actors.

AMY GOODMAN: Eastern Ghouta's fall comes as the U.N. Security Council is set to meet in an emergency session today over the growing prospect of a war between Russia and the U.S., after President Trump threatened U.S. strikes in response to an alleged chemical weapons attack in Douma last Saturday. This is Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vasily Nebenzya.

VASILY NEBENZYA: The immediate priority is to avert the danger of war.

REPORTER: Sir, you just mentioned that you want to avert the danger of war. The danger of war between the U.S. and Russia?

VASILY NEBENZYA: Look, we cannot exclude any possibilities, unfortunately, because we saw—we saw messages that are coming from Washington. They were very bellicose. They know we are there. I hope, I wish there was dialogue through appropriate channels on this to avert any dangerous—any dangerous developments.

AMY GOODMAN: This comes as President Trump tweeted Wednesday, quote, "Get ready Russia, because [missiles] will be coming, nice and new and 'smart!'" Then, on Thursday, Trump appeared to back off slightly from his aggressive stance, tweeting, "Never said when an attack on Syria would take place. Could be very soon or not so soon at all!" That last tweet came after Trump missed a self-imposed deadline of 48 hours to announce major decisions on Syria in the wake of an alleged chemical weapons attack on Douma on Saturday.

Those comments came as the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, said Russia has evidence the attack was fabricated. French President Emmanuel Macron has said he has "proof" that Syria's government carried out the attack. And NBC News cited two unnamed U.S. officials who said blood and urine samples taken from a victim and smuggled out of Douma show signs of poisoning from a nerve agent and chlorine gas.

On Capitol Hill, Defense Secretary James Mattis said the U.S. is still investigating the attack. This is Mattis being questioned by Hawaii Democratic Congressmember Tulsi Gabbard.

REP. TULSI GABBARD: What would the objective of an attack on Syria be? And how does that serve the interests of the American people?"

DEFENSE SECRETARY JAMES MATTIS: I don't want to talk about a specific attack that is not yet in the offing, knowing that these are decisions—this would be predecisional. Again, the president has not made that decision.

AMY GOODMAN: For more on Syria, we go to Beirut, Lebanon, where we're joined via Democracy Now! video stream by Yazan al-Saadi, a Syrian-Canadian writer and researcher.

Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Yazan. Your response to all the latest developments in Syria?

YAZAN AL-SAADI: Thank you very much for having me. One thing I wanted to say is how surreal this is, even this interview, because, Amy, the first time I was on Democracy Now! was almost a year ago, this exact situation appearing. And so—so it just struck me, and I feel I have to say that Karl Marx was right: History repeats. And it was a tragedy, a farce, and it's even more absurd.

There's just so much to say. I mean, my first comment I would like to really point out is this weird discussion happening in the U.S. as if in attack on Syria hasn't happened by the U.S. and by others. Let's remind everyone that the U.S. is striking Syria already. You have more than 2,000 soldiers on the ground. There are bases. For me, as a Syrian, I see it as an occupation, just like how I see the Russians are an occupation on the country. So, I just find the whole discussion that's happening is so absurd.

And I feel like the hysteria that is being manufactured, in my opinion, by these politicians are just distracting from the core issues. And the core issues, at least to me, is accountability for Syrians. I mean, let's be honest. Whether the U.S. strikes Syria—and here, I believe people mean the Syrian military or the Syrian regime—how is this going to bring justice? How is this accountability in any way? Because it's not. And even then, what's next? What's the plan here? So I think the biggest issue that is really driving all of this is that this is another example of the complete dysfunctionality and failure of the international political and accountability system, that this is what we're witnessing again and again. And we're seeing it in Syria, and we've seen it in so many other places around the world. And it's just—it's become very absurd.

And it's become—and it's also, as human being, I mean, I just am so personally upset as a human, as I can. You know, I have to be empathetic here, because people are dying in the scheme of things. Men, women, children, they are being killed predominantly by the ones that have the most power, i.e. the regime and its allies, and they all are also being killed and harmed and abused by armed opposition groups, who are backed by other superpowers. So, that's where we're at.

And these theater plays, these things that happen over an alleged chemical attack—and I personally believe it happened, and I believe—I have my thoughts and my conclusions on who the culprit are, based on the evidence that we all have around. It's really—

AMY GOODMAN: Who do you believe—who do you believe launched this attack?

YAZAN AL-SAADI: Who do I think launched the attack? Based on the evidence that is around, based on trends, based on the history, based on context, I do think it was the Syrian regime. However, what does this change anything? Because, OK, the OPCW is currently investigating in the country, and they should start on Saturday. And I support that. I believe in an investigation. There has to be some sort of accountability here. I don't believe in a Western invasion and overthrow of the Syrian regime, because I don't think that leads to Syrian determination. However, how does this change anything? Because the OPCW has already said, in previous reports, that it has linked the Syrian regime to chlorine attacks, at least three of them. It has also pointed out there are links of ISIS using mustard gas. So, what are we arguing here? Are we arguing that chemical weapons are happening in Syria? Well, they are. People are using chemical weapons, are using chemical agents, whether it's chlorine or anything else. What changes? This doesn't—it ignores the fact that the most deaths are happening through conventional means. People are dying because of airstrikes, bullets, sieges. So this idea of chemical weapons is also—it's absurd.

AMY GOODMAN: So, Yazan, for people who aren't aware, OPCW is the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. But I wanted to go to Russia's foreign minister rejecting the allegations of the chemical weapons attack in Douma.

MARIA ZAKHAROVA: [translated] Doctors, chemical defense specialists have been to Douma, where chemical weapons were allegedly used, but they found no traces of such use, no casualties or victims of this mythical chemical attack. The West stubbornly refuses to listen to a heap of information.

AMY GOODMAN: France says they have evidence that it was the Syrian government. But today the German foreign minister, Heiko Maas, said Western countries must increase pressure on Russia in order to solve the crisis in Syria.

HEIKO MAAS: [translated] We want these people to be held criminally responsible internationally, and there remains a lot to be done. The repeated use of chemical weapons, which is internationally prohibited, cannot come without consequences. You cannot just continue with the daily agenda. This now needs to be discussed with our Western partners.

AMY GOODMAN: So, Germany says they wouldn't get involved with Britain and France and the United States with an attack. And, Yazan, your response to the Russians saying it's not them?

YAZAN AL-SAADI: Yeah, I'm not surprised that the Russians would take this line, just like I'm not surprised about the Western governments' line. I mean, you know, a lot of people point to the example of what happened with Iraq. And I agree that, you know, what happened with Iraq is criminal, and this idea of manufacturing evidence.

But there are two things I want to point out. Does this mean that if the U.S. was actually telling the truth and there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq—does this justify the killing of over a million Iraqis and the destruction of Iraq? Is this what people are arguing? Because that's what I'm hearing.

Secondly, the position of manufacturing or victim blaming isn't really new. All regimes, whether they are the Russians, the Syrians, the Israelis, the Saudis, the Americans, say the same thing, and they've said the same thing throughout history. A lot of people say, "Remember Iraq." I also say, "True, and I agree: Remember Iraq. And also remember things like Guernica, where the fascist government at the time, during the Spanish Civil War, completely denied what happened to Guernica, and said it was fabricated and that the anarchists and leftists were bombing and burning themselves." So, this is—this is the situation, let's all agree. And let's be frank: They are all lying in many ways to us. They are all lying.

AMY GOODMAN: You know, it's interesting you raise Guernica. The famous painting by Pablo Picasso of what happened in Guernica well over 75 years ago, the banner of a tapestry of that painting, famous painting, that is known around the world, hangs outside the U.N. Security Council. Today, the U.N. Security Council will be meeting on Syria. So, what do you think is the solution, Yazan? You are a Syrian. You have seen your country destroyed. You now—don't you have actually Russian soldiers and U.S. soldiers on the ground in Syria?

YAZAN AL-SAADI: Yeah, we have everyone on the ground. It's a buffet. So, what do I think? And I can only—and I am going to say this very clearly: I am speaking for myself; I'm not representing, you know, Syrians or Syria, because there's a whole wide range of views.

What I think I believe the solution is: accountability. I believe the only way and the only way we, as Syrians, could move on and build a sustainable—a sustainable, coherent country is to move for accountability, accountability against every crime inflicted on every Syrian body over the course of seven years. I mean, if the regime—and I know that the regime has committed crimes. They should go—they should be taken to court, and then they should be put in prison. Same thing with the armed opposition. Same thing with the Americans, who have devastated places like Raqqa. Same thing like the Russians, who have devastated places around Syria. They should all be held to account.

And the only way to do that is not resorting to the international legal, political mechanisms, because they are failing. They are dysfunctional, and they are not made to help us citizens of the world. I believe, or I think, I should say, the best thing we can do—me and you and whoever else is listening or watching—is that we need to build a movement, because the movements today, whether it's Stop the War or the so-called mainstream left, they are abysmal, and they are failing just as well, because not only are they not stopping the wars, they are reproducing narratives that are harming people on the ground in the end—no different from the neocons and the Orientalists and anyone else that are warmongers.

The solution, or the idea, in my mind, is a better discourse, as well. For example, if one says that Assad is a criminal, this does not mean automatically Western intervention. And we shouldn't think that. At the same time, Western intervention cannot be presented as the only solution to dealing with Assad. Neither are correct. Both of them are terrible. And the Syrian people, like many other communities in the world, deserve better discourse and movements. Our bodies are being devastated, just like bodies are being devastated in Iraq, in Palestine and in Yemen. And we all need help. And that requires, really, an international mobilization of people, because everything else is horrendous. Don't you think so?

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Yazan, let me ask you a last question. President Trump making this decision as he is embroiled in various sex scandals, accusations of—the special counsel, Robert Mueller, is moving in on him. His lawyer's, you know, home and hotel room and offices have been raided. Apparently there are recordings of his lawyer that have also been taken by the authorities. Now, why raise this as you're dealing in Syria with a possible chemical weapons attack, the number of people killed over these years, is because this decision might not actually be made because of what's happening on the ground in Syria, but the internal politics of what's happening here in the United States and wanting to distract attention.

YAZAN AL-SAADI: That could be certainly so. I mean, whatever Trump does, he can do. But let's not forget that behind Trump is a whole system in place, right? There is—it's not just Trump. We're talking about a political military system within the United States, just like within other countries, that makes these decisions. So, I have no faith in that, and I have no faith in Trump.

And there's one thing. The tweet that Trump had—it was yesterday—where he ended that people should say "thank you" to America. You know, I have something to say, and I'm going to say it in Arabic: Kol khara, which basically means—you can tell him it means "thank you." Because, in the end, what Trump is doing and all this hullabaloo that we also hear from, let's not forget, France and the U.K., who are no better and who are embroiled in a lot of crimes and supportive of repressive regimes in the region—how can I expect them to save me? They are no different from the Russians, in my opinion, you know, in terms of—will they bring me self-determination? Are they actively working to help me and my society and our neighbors? No, they're not. Let's not forget that the three main countries that are gung-ho to start, you know, launching attacks are also—you know, the U.S., the U.K. and France—are also the three main countries that deny the rights of Syrian refugees to enter their lands. So how can I take them seriously? I cannot.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Yazan al-Saadi, I want to thank you for being with us, Syrian-Canadian writer and researcher, speaking to us from Beirut, Lebanon.

This is Democracy Now! When we come back, President Trump railed repeatedly against the Trans-Pacific Partnership. It was one of his first acts in office to pull out of any such agreement. He is now saying he wants to rejoin the TPP. We'll speak with Public Citizen's Lori Wallach. Stay with us.

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United nations Syria

THE ABSURD TIMES

Assad with the only head of state invited into Syria.

There has been too much going on and I've just stored all the information for later.  One thing that is important and should be mentioned is that Iona Craig, perhaps the only reliable journalist on the subject of Yemen, did an interview.  However, you can follow her at @ionacraig (I think).  I'll get to it eventually.  Gaza has also been covered.  But today, I need to reveal the deep workings on the UN Security Council now that we have a genuine madman in as National Security Advisor.  The only thing safe about it is that Trump doesn't listen to advice.

So, one recent afternoon, I ran into a UN discussion on Sryia.  Just for context, the only elements invited in by a sovereign government, Syria, are Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah (if you count them).  All the rest are invaders.

We should make it clear that Assad, President of Syria, has been very ungrateful to us of late.  Here we send his the making of the best regime the CIA can devise and he doesn't want it.  He does not even say thank you.

So I tuned in and the Russian was speaking.  It seems that there actually was no attack and all the people need is to be sprayed with water.

The next speaker, and here it became difficult to follow, as I got very groggy by that time, lamented at the absence of Lady Justice.  There was also something about a handmaiden in there. 

Then someone mentioned that impunity was denied.  I think he had the name Inchauste in his name somewhere.

Now in the middle of all this, Salisbury became the discussion.  Why the hell are we debating Salisbury?  Discussing what to have for lunch?  Then it became clear that it had to do with poisoning a father and daughter who decided to be on England's side rather than Russia's.  They never did explain why Russia was never given a sample of the offending substance to analyze, but what happened to Syria?

Well, someone chimed in quickly and mentioned that there was an elephant in the chamber.  I looked around as that was something worth noting, but none appeared.

It turns out that the "White Helmets" are mercenaries.

One thing that has to stop is the U.S. referring to governments as "Regimes".  That's a dirty word.  If it happens again, Russia will call a point of order and stop the meeting.  So watch it, Nikki.  This isn't Carolina.

Syria mentioned that there were bunches of unaffiliated orphans with long breads and carrying black banners, of White Helmets, and so on and Syria is offering them up for adoption.  This is a humane gesture for all the orphans in Syria.  Take them. 

All in all, it was good to see how the International Community works.

Gaze, Humanity

THE ABSURD TIMES

Some Protests that didn't get on TV (above)

Good Friday was marked by more fascistic behavior by Israel and Israel has our country in its shackles.  In fact, since Trump, we have been eager accomplices in all of Israel's outrages against International Law.  Several states here are trying to outlaw BDS (Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions) speech.  These actions do not get much coverage on media here.

Everybody can at least choose not to buy anything made in Israel and so labeled.  Often, companies do business with Israel and are encouraged to stop.  Sometimes public institutions can be persuaded to divest themselves of stock in Israeli products, but these are arduous endeavors.  You can, however, all by yourself, simply refuse to buy anything you even suspect of benefiting Israel.  You may miss here and there, you may even find yourself facing a bit of inconvenience, but so far, at least, nothing can stop you from not purchasing something you suspect of benefiting Israel. It is much like Thoreau's point:  If you cannot bring yourself to actively oppose a government action or an oppressing government, you can at least have nothing to do with it.

As horrifying as the situation is, the same is being done in the name of Christ, patriotism, protecting citizens, and anything else just about everywhere else.  Remember the poor citizens being bombed by the terrible Assad in Syria?  It was in a suburb of Damascus.  Such an evil man.   Well, holding them prisoners were our people, freedom fighters, the best the CIA had to offer.  Such ingratitude they exhibited.  Now the citizens are free and glad to be back with the evil dictator and the captors sent off the a town on the border with Turkey where, since there is a Kurdish element, we can count of the lovely but evil Erdogan to attack.  It is going on all over the planet.  We do not have to list Putin's actions here, as they are available on any American news channel along with appropriate condemnation, but little mention is made of the fact they he is simply doing for Russia what we are doing for ourselves.  And let us not be naïve enough to think that Hillary (my God) or Bernie, or, hahahaha trump will make any change.

Here is and interview about what has been the government of Israel has been doing in the last few days:

At least 18 Palestinians have died in Gaza after Israeli forces opened fire Friday on a protest near the Gaza Strip's eastern border with Israel. As many as 1,700 Palestinians were wounded. The deaths and injuries came as 30,000 Gaza residents gathered near the wall, as part of a planned 6-week-long nonviolent protest against the blockade of Gaza and to demand the right of return for Palestinian refugees. The protests began on Friday, March 30, known as "Land Day," marking the anniversary of the 1976 killing of six Palestinians protesting the Israeli confiscation of Arab land. Video posted online shows unarmed Palestinians being shot in the back while taking part in Friday's protest. Another 49 Palestinians were injured by Israeli forces on Saturday. Israel's actions have been condemned around the world, but Israel is rejecting calls to investigate the killings. At the United Nations, the U.S. blocked a move by the U.N. Security Council to open an investigation.

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Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We begin today's show in Gaza, where 18 Palestinians have died, after Israeli forces opened fire Friday on a protest near the Gaza Strip's eastern border with Israel. As many as 1,700 Palestinians were wounded. The deaths and injuries came as 30,000 Gaza residents gathered near the wall as part of a planned 6-week-long nonviolent protest against the blockade of Gaza and to demand the right of return for Palestinian refugees. The protests began on Friday, March 30th, which is known as "Land Day." The annual event marks the anniversary of the March 30th, 1976, killing of six Palestinians protesting the Israeli confiscation of Arab land. Video posted online shows unarmed Palestinians being shot in the back while taking part in Friday's protest. Another 49 Palestinians were injured by Israeli forces on Saturday.

AMY GOODMAN: Israel's actions have been condemned around the world, but Israel is rejecting calls to investigate the killings. Meanwhile, at the United Nations, the U.S. blocked a move by the U.N. Security Council to open an investigation. Riyad Mansour, the Palestinian ambassador to the United Nations, condemned Israel's actions.

RIYAD MANSOUR: These peaceful demonstrations posed no threat whatsoever to Israel or its heavily armed soldiers. Yet its trigger-happy soldiers used live ammunition, tear gas and rubber bullets to shoot indiscriminately at those nonviolent protesters, who were demonstrating inside the Gaza Strip near their side of the well-fortified barrier that separates them from Israel. How could that be condoned?

AMY GOODMAN: Israel has defended its use of lethal force. Captain Keren Hajioff is the head of public diplomacy in the Israel Defense Forces.

CAPT. KEREN HAJIOFF: What we've seen over the last 24 hours is anything other than a peaceful protest. What we've seen is a violent riot in its clearest form. The Hamas terrorist organization have sent their people here to camouflage their true intentions. And we've seen that on the ground, just behind where I'm standing right now.

AMY GOODMAN: We go first to Gaza City to attorney Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza. He received the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award in 1991. He was also twice named an Amnesty International prisoner of conscience.

Raji Sourani, take us back to Land Day, to Friday, and talk about what took place.

RAJI SOURANI: Gazans, after 11 years of criminal, illegal, inhuman siege, which suffocated Gaza socially and economically, and after three wars, where Israel was targeting, in the eye of the storm, the Palestinian civilians and civilian targets. And this time, where Israel didn't allow rebuilding Gaza, and denied us from our basic rights, I mean, to that level we are not able to treat our water or our sewage. Gaza, after 11 years of siege, having 65 percent unpaid or unemployed, having 90 percent under poverty line, and 85 percent depends on UNRWA rations, so they shifted us to be a nation of beggars in a biggest man-made disaster. Two million people are crippled, not because we are lazy. We have one of the highest percents of university graduates, and we have one of the most fantastic skilled workers, and we have no illiteracy. But with that, they didn't allow us to function normally, and they decided to disconnect us from the West Bank and from the outside world, and invested all reasons to make Gaza, really, I mean, ISIS space, where people lose hope, no future and no opportunity for—at any level or by any chance.

So, people wanted, after all this conspiracy of silence, after all this pain and suffering, to demonstrate for their dignity, for their right of having an end for this criminal, illegal, inhuman siege, which all international human rights organizations, all U.N. bodies and all world civil society denied and denounced and condemned Israel of practicing it. They just wanted to have an outcry. We want to have an end. We want to be free. We want to have, you know, access to the outside world. We want to be normal. This is incredible, what's going on. And people just decided to resort, in Land Day, to a peaceful means, peaceful demonstration.

And they went, in hundreds of thousands—men, women, young, old. From early morning, everybody marched and went to very specific points designated by the political parties to demonstrate that. And all political parties declared and committed themselves to have it clearly peacefully. I personally was there. I was on the border with the people, from the early morning. I can assure you 100 percent what I have seen, what I witnessed, what I felt, what all our field workers across the Gaza Strip felt and watched and noticed, that this was 100 percent peaceful demonstrations. Nothing—nothing—weird had happened. All people were away from the fence, tens of meters, between 50 to 100 meters at least.

And the Israeli soldiers on the other side, 100 to 150. I can assure you one harvest of this day: Not a single Israeli soldier were hurt or injured or shot. But we have almost 1,500 people injured, many of them in critical conditions. Many of those in a critical conditions are children. And we have 16 killed that day. We are talking about purely civilians people, peaceful demonstration. It was very costly.

And Israel wanted to provocate people, to have the retract for the Gazan total, to retaliate, to retaliate in a violent way. But people were committed to this notion: peaceful, peaceful demonstration. And they wanted to show their moral superiority on criminal, aggressive occupation, who do flagrantly war crimes and crimes against humanity on the daylight. This was on the record, in front of the media. It wasn't, I mean, hide. And I challenge if Israel can prove one single violent act was taken by the demonstrators at that day. It was, for us, day of pride and day of challenge for this anniversary of 50 years of criminal occupation.

AMY GOODMAN: Raji Sourani, we're going to break and then come back to this discussion. Raji Sourani, award-winning human rights lawyer, activist, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza. He is on the executive board of the International Federation for Human Rights, a Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award winner. This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we'll continue our discussion about what took place in Gaza. It's believed 18 people killed by Israeli forces on Friday, more than a thousand wounded. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: "The Night Has Fallen Down" by Rim Banna, a Palestinian musician who recently died of cancer. Banna has performed all over the world calling for the end of the Palestinian occupation. This is Democracy Now! I'm Amy Goodman, with Juan González, as we continue to look at the crisis in Gaza, where 18 Palestinians were killed after Israeli forces opened fire Friday on a protest near the Gaza Strip's eastern border with Israel. As many as 1,700 Palestinians were wounded.

In addition to human rights activist Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza City, who was there on Friday, we're also joined by Diana Buttu in the Israeli city of Haifa. She has served as a legal adviser to the Palestinians in negotiations with Israel, previously an adviser to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. And in Washington, D.C., we're joined by the Israeli peace activist and writer Miko Peled. His father was an Israeli general, a military governor of the Gaza Strip and a member of Parliament. In 1997, his niece was killed in a suicide attack in Jerusalem. Juan?

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, I'd like to bring in Diana Buttu to talk about the claims of the Israeli Defense Forces, one, that the protesters turned violent, and also that most of the people killed were young men between the ages of 18 and 30, including several folks that they've identified as Hamas leaders. Could you respond to that portion of what the Israelis have claimed?

DIANA BUTTU: Well, of course the Israelis are going to try to claim that this was anything but a peaceful protest, because they have no way of justifying what it is that they did. I think it's important, Juan, to keep in mind exactly the layout of the Gaza Strip. We've got the Gaza Strip, which is completely fortified on both the north and eastern side by an electrified fence. And then, in addition to that electrified fence, that people cannot pass, Israel has imposed a 350-meter, about a thousand-foot, buffer zone that is unmarked in that area, as well. And that buffer zone, that no-go zone, is an area where if Palestinians go there, they will be shot by the Israeli army.

And so, their claim is that they were somehow trying to protect Israel. But, first, there was no—there was absolutely no sign whatsoever that there was any—any of that sort of thing. And then, secondly, the type of force and the weaponry that was used, they made it clear, from even the day before the protest was taking place, that they were going to use live ammunition to shoot to kill. And they announced as much by saying that they were going to be using and putting forth a hundred snipers on the border that day. So, this idea that this was somehow not a peaceful protest is simply their attempt at revisionist history. But video footage and all the footage that is coming out of Gaza has clearly demonstrated the opposite.

In terms of the people who were killed, there were people—the vast majority of the people or all the people who were killed were under the age of 30, because that is the composition of the Gaza Strip right now. More than 50 percent of the population is under the age of 18 years of age. So, what Israel was shooting at was a child population. It's a defenseless population, a civilian population and a refugee population. And they made it very clear that they were shooting to kill, and so they did.

AMY GOODMAN: On Saturday, the Israeli army tweeted, "Yesterday we saw 30,000 people; we arrived prepared and with precise reinforcements. Nothing was carried out uncontrolled; everything was accurate and measured, and we know where every bullet landed." The tweet was later deleted. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said the tweet was akin to saying, "Israeli army takes full responsibility for the killing of all unarmed protesters and the injuring of hundreds with live ammunition." Raji Sourani, in Gaza, your response to what Israel is saying and the fact that Israel is saying they will not investigate this, despite what the U.N. Security Council is calling for?

RAJI SOURANI: …investigated. And my experience for the last 40 years as practicing lawyer in the Israeli legal system, never, ever, I mean, they hold accountable anybody, I mean, for crimes, you know, have been committed, vice versa, I mean, even with the cases we submitted once and again. I mean, all the way along, the Israeli legal system provided full legal cover for organized, systematic crimes perpetrated by the Israeli occupation army. On the other side, Israel never cooperated with any investigation committee ever, by the U.N. or any other body. They only recognize their justice. And they know how to justify for themselves all these willful killings and crimes they are perpetrating against international law.

We do act according to very simple formula, supported by international community. There is facts, standards, conclusions. The facts, we know. I mean, we are living here, and I think we have enough credibility and professionalism to say this is peaceful demonstration. And Palestinians can be peaceful. We are not terrorists. We are freedom fighters. We are romantic revolutionaries. We have absolute legitimate right of be free of occupation, and the history never, ever spoke about just or fair occupation. It's vice versa. The Israeli occupation showed, by default, I mean, how criminal they are.

Now, the demonstrations were peaceful. And the Israeli army, before this Friday, in a clear-cut way, politicians, a spokesperson, army spokespersons and different army and security leaders said, "We are going to use the snipers. We are going to kill any who come close to the borders, peaceful or not." And these statements are on the record. Believe me. Believe me, Amy, I was there. It can be me who was shot and killed or injured. In short, lottery numbers. Snipers are hundreds of meters away, and they are shooting, picking people like animals—I mean, shooting at them, for no reason whatsoever. I mean, you can see people falling down among those peaceful demonstrators—you know, one injured, one killed, one in the back of his head, one in his spine. And you don't know, I mean, where your lottery number can be. So, Israel really committed very intentionally crime. They did willful killing.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Raji—

RAJI SOURANI: This was—in advance, has been decided.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Raji Sourani, I'd like to also bring in Miko Peled, an Israeli peace activist. I wanted to get your response to the current violence. And also, if you could talk, as you have often talked about, the treatment of Palestinians who are—who live within Israel, who are Israeli citizens, and yet they are also continuing to suffer under Israeli rule?

MIKO PELED: Sure, yes. I mean, look, the issue here is a threat to the Israeli legitimacy. As long as this humanitarian catastrophe continues to fester, there is a threat to the story that Israel somehow has legitimacy. And the people who have to pay the price are the Palestinians. And so, when they dare to stand, and they dare to challenge the claim that Israel has legitimacy, then they have to be shot.

The only reason that there's such poverty in the Gaza Strip, the only reason there's such poverty in the Negev desert, where Palestinians have Israeli citizenship, the only reason the Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship are on the lowest—the lowest level, you know, the very bottom of the economic totem pole within what is called legitimate—so-called legitimate Israel, is because they are—Israel wants them either dead or out, because as long as they survive, as long as they are there, there's a challenge to the legitimacy of the state of Israel. If the existence of the state of Israel comes at a cost of what we see in Gaza, then there cannot be legitimacy. And this is why they're killing.

So the claim that somehow there is a threat to Israel from Gaza or a threat to Israel from any Palestinians, who never had an army, who never had a tank, who never had an F-16 fighter plane, is nonsense. The threat is that people will see that Israel has no legitimacy, that the price for the establishment and the existence of the state of Israel is Palestinian suffering, is Palestinian refugees, is the ongoing killing of Palestinians, denial of their rights, denial of their right to water and a normal life. I mean, 2 million people in Gaza live without access to clean water or medical care. The same goes for Palestinians who are citizens of Israel, who are—who have no access to clean water and other services. So, it's an insult to the intelligence, really, when they start to claim that somehow this or any of the other Palestinian protests around Palestine at any point in time were somehow a threat.

And this nonsense claim that somehow Hamas was behind it and did not declare their intentions—their intentions are very clear: It was a nonviolent protest. It was designed in order to remind people the Palestinians have a right to return, and they want to return to their lands and their homes, the lands from which they—in many cases, they can see from the border of the Gaza Strip. And the bottom line is that we have Palestinians—a young Palestinian child in Gaza with a curable disease will die, whereas a young Israeli child a few miles away will live, because Israel has declared it has the right to decide who lives and dies. You know, this is a reality. It's a question of legitimacy.

AMY GOODMAN: Miko Peled, you're the son of an Israeli general, the uncle of a—your niece was killed in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem. What is the response right now of the Israeli people? I mean, you have this nonviolent demonstration, 18 Palestinians gunned down. More than a thousand have been wounded.

MIKO PELED: Look, if we want to see what Israeli society thinks, all we need to do is look at the makeup of the Israeli Knesset, of the Israeli parliament, and the Israeli government, because Israelis vote in very high numbers. So, from time to time, as in this case, you see a few hundred people protesting there, a few hundred Israelis protesting here, but the vast majority of Israelis support the government, support its actions and call for more and more violence. They see this as completely justified. If you look at the Israeli press, the narrative is that these were clashes, that there were somehow violent intentions on the part of the Palestinians. They're completely lock and step behind what the government spokespeople are saying. So, this is what the Israelis think. Israelis agree to this. They voted for these people. And it's not like it's only Netanyahu. Netanyahu has a broad coalition and broad support all over, you know, the—among politicians, among the press and among people in the street. It's a very, very—it's a very sad state of affairs within Israeli society, because there is support for this. If Israelis wanted to end the siege on Gaza, they could be out there, in hundreds of thousands, protesting, or vote for somebody else. They support this 100 percent.

AMY GOODMAN: United Nations Secretary-General António Guterres has called for an independent, transparent investigation into the Gaza bloodshed. However, on Sunday, the Israeli defense minister, Avigdor Lieberman, told Israel's public radio that there will not be an inquiry. He said, quote, "From the standpoint of the [Israeli Defense Force] soldiers, they did what had to be done. … I think that all of our troops deserve a commendation." Raji Sourani, can you respond, as we wrap up, what you're calling for and your response to what the Israeli military is saying?

RAJI SOURANI: I know the victims of 2008, '09, and I know the victims of 2012, and I know the victims of 2014. And we know what Israel is doing on day-to-day basis. I represent those civilian victims. I represented them all my life. And I know what Israel is doing, and what quality and kind of crimes they are doing. Israel doing ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem, for Palestinians and Christians and Muslims. Israel building a new brand of apartheid in the West Bank and in Gaza with the siege. They are doing social, economic, health suffocation. That's the harvest of 25 years of Oslo Accords, which was intended to end by having a Palestinian self-determination, independent, and state in Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalem.

Lieberman, first-class criminal, I can assure you one thing: One day he will stand for justice, and he will be held accountable for all the crimes and orders he gave to those criminal soldiers due to the chain of command.

They want to push us for one thing: to give up, to be good victims. Never, ever we will give up. And we will continue the fight for our freedom, for our dignity, for our people, for our right to be free, to have an end for this criminal occupation, in its 50th anniversary. They want to steal tomorrow from us, but tomorrow is ours. We are on the right side of history. And that will happen, irrelevant to what Lieberman is saying, our people so determined to go with this. And these peaceful demonstrations will continue to the day of Nakba, in 15th of May. And it will be, in 15th of May, a big day for Palestinians. In millions, there will be, with their friends, supporters, those who support rule of law, democracy and the human rights, and against the rule of—

AMY GOODMAN: Raji Sourani—

RAJI SOURANI: —[inaudible] Israel is doing.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you very much for being with us, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza; also Miko Peled, joining us from Washington, D.C., Israeli peace activist; and Diana Buttu, joining us on the phone from Haifa, Palestinian lawyer.

This is Democracy Now!