Posts
THE ABSURD TIMES
It never stops
Our war on Palestinains
By
Czar Donic
But before we get to stuff like that, I have to announce, here, formally, that I am running for the nomination for the Republican Candidacy for President. I announced this a few days ago, stating that I should do quite well as nobody else was running. I have already collected four votes, 3 for an acquaintance and one from myself should I turn up to vote. More were expected, but I was then the frontrunner.
Since then, Bill Weld, former Governor of Maryland has joined in of the fun. He is really more of a libertarian and this means that we agree about half the time. The last time the libertarians wanted me to run for sheriff, they gave me a test and I scored a 60%. Not bad, actually. The one thing they most objected to was that I liked Public Radio. In fact, they were vehement about it. I pointed out "Look, it's the only place around here that plays classical music all day. I'm used Chicago when they had three stations that played it and the public station did not. So screw private enterprise until it gets into classical music." With that, they calmed down. I ran as Sheriff and finished second having promised not to enforce any laws against victimless crimes.
So, who know who will come next? Surely someone. Weld can be formidable, but anyone else who would run for the Republican nomination would be chewed up alive by either one of us. He'd probably be some sort of religious fanatic promising to force church attendance, outlaw abortion, institute the death penalty for anything he didn't think Jesus didn't like. No way he'll get anywhere.
So that leaves us with Israel and Gaza.
It never ends. What we need to do is stop sending them, Israel, our money. We can't afford it.
Let Sheldon Adelson send the his money.
There is really no point in saying anything more, except to post another Latuff illustration, followed by a discussion of the recent attacks.
Leaders in Israel and Gaza have reportedly reached a ceasefire agreement after an intense three days of fighting left 25 Palestinians and four Israelis dead. Palestinian authorities said the dead in Gaza included two pregnant women, a 14-month-old girl and a 12-year-old boy. The latest round of violence began on Friday. According to the Washington Post, Israeli forces shot dead two Palestinian protesters taking part in the weekly Great March of Return which began 13 months ago. Palestinians then reportedly shot and wounded two Israeli soldiers near the border. In response, Israel carried out an airstrike on a refugee camp killing two Palestinian militants. The heaviest combat took place on Saturday and Sunday as militants in Gaza fired about 700 rockets into Israel while Israel launched airstrikes on over 350 targets inside Gaza. The weekend has been described as the heaviest combat in the region since the 2014 Israeli assault on Gaza. Residents in Gaza fear the ceasefire will not last. We go to Gaza City to speak with Raji Sourani, award-winning human rights lawyer and the director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. We also speak with Jehad Abusalim, a scholar and policy analyst from Gaza who works for the American Friends Service Committee's Gaza Unlocked Campaign.
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, Democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman.
Leaders in Israel and Gaza have reportedly reached a ceasefire agreement after an intense three days of fighting that left 25 Palestinians and four Israelis dead. Palestinian authorities said the dead in Gaza included two pregnant women, a 14-month-old girl, and a 12-year-old boy. The latest round of violence began on Friday. According to The Washington Post, Israeli forces shot dead two Palestinian protesters taking part in the weekly Great March of Return, which began 13 months ago. Palestinians then reportedly shot and wounded two Israeli soldiers near the border.
In response, Israel carried out an airstrike on a refugee camp, killing two Palestinian militants. The heaviest combat took place Saturday and Sunday as militants in Gaza fired about 700 rockets into Israel while Israel launched airstrikes on over 350 targets inside Gaza. The weekend has been described as the heaviest combat in the region since the 2014 Israeli assault on Gaza. Residents there fear the ceasefire will not last.
MAHMOUD AL-WEHDI: [translated] This truce will be the same as the previous ones. Each time, there is a truce for a week or two, and then they are back to fighting again. This is how it has been throughout the history of the Palestinian people. We are suffering from the fight—airstrikes that target civilians, they strike residential buildings, and we are left with our clothes we are wearing. There was no time to take personal stuff.
AMY GOODMAN: The violence comes at a time when Israel is facing accusations it has reneged on an agreement to ease the devastating 12-year blockade on Gaza. In late March, Israel and Hamas agreed to a deal brokered by Egypt for Israel to expand the fishing zone for Palestinians off the coast of Gaza, but Israel shrank the fishing zone last week. The Israeli rights group Gisha described the move as an act of collective punishment.
To talk about the crisis in Gaza, we go to Gaza City where we are joined by Raji Sourani, an award-winning human rights lawyer. He is the director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza and a member of the executive board of the International Federation for Human Rights. He received the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award in 1991. He was also twice named an Amnesty International Prisoner of Conscience. I know there will be a delay between my questions and Raji Sourani's response, so I hope folks will bear with us as he speaks to us from Gaza City where a ceasefire has just gone into effect which allowed Raji Sourani to even make it to the studio. Raji Sourani, welcome to Democracy Now! Can you describe this latest escalation of violence, what you understand took place?
RAJI SOURANI: Thank you, thank you being with you. Yes, the situation in Gaza in the last three days was rather mission impossible to move anywhere in Gaza, and it was no singular place is safe haven in Gaza. The Israelis bombed everywhere from south to north. And basically, and as usual, in the eye of the storm were the civilians and the civilian targets. That's why the situation was very tense. And of course [inaudible] resistance in Gaza, I mean, retaliated with hundreds of rockets against Israel.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you explain, when Israel says that it hit 350 military targets, what those targets are?
RAJI SOURANI: That's nonsense, because a bunch of Hamas and Jihad activist who has been killed by the Israelis. The rest—the overwhelming majority of those who has been killed or injured are entirely civilians, civilian people, including two pregnant women, children and many other civilians. There is entire family in northern part of Gaza erased. I mean, they don't exist anymore—father, mother and their children. Same thing happened in the middle area.
So basically, Israel knocked down many of towers in Gaza, where it's entirely residential areas for very, very ordinary people. And that's why there is hundreds, if not thousands, of people are in the street right now after their towers and apartments has been destroyed. Gaza is one of the most heavily populated area on Earth, and the density of population incredible. And Israel was like elephant in the garden bombing, shooting everywhere.
AMY GOODMAN: On Sunday evening, President Trump tweeted, "Once again, Israel faces a barrage of deadly rocket attacks by terrorist groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad. We support Israel 100% in its defense of its citizens," he said. Trump continued, "To the Gazan people — these terrorist acts against Israel will bring you nothing but more misery. ENDthe violence and work towards peace — it can happen!" Raji Sourani, your response?
RAJI SOURANI: Well, I think Mr. Trump is the last one who should speak about peace and who should speak about terrorism. And I think what he is doing against Palestinian people, against Palestinians, goes against international law, international humanitarian law. It is evil and unacceptable by all meanings and standards. I don't want to dig deep into history. I don't want to go back to a year ago when he promised Israel of having Jerusalem as its capital, which is totally illegal and unacceptable by not Palestinians, but by international community and by international law. When his security advisor threatened—threatened—the International Criminal Court prosecutors and judges and they gave a promise that they will hold accountable any of them who take any decisions against U.S. or Israel for the war crimes they are doing, and he expired their visas and promised to freeze their accounts and take even further procedure against them.
He is not the one who can talk about terrorism. He is doing, effectively, rule of jungle, not the rule of law. And if he's talking precisely about Gaza and what had happened here, Israel do war crimes, crimes against humanity for the last 20 years or so. They are doing it in the daylight. It's not we the Palestinian who are saying that; it's the Palestinian-Israeli international human rights organizations, and it's the U.N. bodies including Human Rights Council and the U.N. Commission of Inquiry who says Israel do war crimes. And they are safe, and they are doing it once and again, because they feel they are immune. Israel and its leaders feeling fully immune because the American administration, especially the Trump administration, will provide them with full legal, political immunities. They have a free hand. They are doing these things in the daylight, they practice rule of jungle, and they are not held accountable at all.
AMY GOODMAN: On Sunday, Congressmember Ilhan Omar tweeted, "How many more protesters must be shot, rockets must be fired, and little kids must be killed until the endless cycle of violence ends? The status quo of occupation and humanitarian crisis in Gaza is unsustainable. Only real justice can bring about security and lasting peace," said Congressmember Ilhan Omar.
Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming, the daughter of the former Vice President Dick Cheney, attacked Omar, tweeting back, "1. Hamas controls Gaza. 2. Hamas is firing rockets at civilians in Israel. 3. @IlhanMN is defending Hamas. Real question is how many times will @IlhanMN rush to the defense of terrorists?" Raji Sourani, can you talk about the role of Islamic Jihad and Hamas and also the Great March of Return that has gone on for more than a year every Friday after prayers?
RAJI SOURANI: Almost a month ago, the Commission of Inquiry, which was formed by the U.N. Human Rights Council, concluded its report, and they said in a clear-cut and unequivocal way, Palestinians do have the right of freedom of expression. Palestinians do have the right to have their demonstrations. Nobody have the right to tell them where to do it, whether on the border or in Gaza. These demonstrations for one full year in five designated areas provided for these peaceful demonstrations were entirely peaceful and no evidence whatsoever after a full, thorough investigation by the Commission of Inquiry showed that there was any level of violence has been practiced. Not a single Israeli soldier life has been threatened, and no Israeli soldier was injured or killed in these five designated area where peaceful demonstration took place.
But the Commission of Inquiry and all the human rights organizations—Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, FIDH, EuroMed, Human Rights Network, Palestinian-Israeli—that the Israeli did war crimes, crimes against humanity, by snipers, who saw surely the bodies, faces [inaudible] of the children they killed, of the women they killed, of the nurses, of the handicapped, of the old and young people who were demonstrating hundreds of meters away from these Israeli soldiers where they didn't pose any sort of threat. So Israel wanted this. Israel wanted to kill and shoot at children, nurses, women, the civilians who demonstrated for one year, almost, to say one thing—we cannot tolerate this criminal, illegal, inhuman siege, which considered by international law, by international humanitarian law, by Geneva Conventions, and by the International Criminal Court—it's a crime against humanity. Cannot be tolerated.
They suffocated us. Thirteen years, we are unable to move in or out of Gaza. Gaza turned to be the biggest man-made disaster. Due to that, we cannot treat our water. We cannot treat our sewage. We cannot treat our electricity. Israel said 13 years ago, "We will send Gaza to the Middle Ages." And they effectively did. People of Gaza are disconnected from the outside world. We have 90% of the population under poverty line, 85% of the population shifted to be receiving rations from UNRWA and other charities. There are 65% unpaid or unemployed. This is the biggest man-made disaster. And it is not because we are so. We have one of the highest percent of university graduates in the world. We have no illiteracy. We have a skilled working class. We have very strong business community. But Israel wanted to send us to the Middle Ages, and effectively they did. They said that once and again.
Hamas and Jihad Islamic, they are part of us, part of the Palestinian political spectrum. They are part of the resistance against the occupation. After 70 years of Nakba, more than 50 years of occupation, and 25 years of Oslo Accords, nobody—nobody—talking about end of the occupation. Occupation a crime of aggression. And the Israeli occupation is not holy. This is a crime and should end. Palestinians deserve dignity and freedom. Israel, instead of that, they are taking Jerusalem—Jerusalem, they ruled it out, and it's theirs de facto and de jure after serious ethnic cleansing for Palestinians in Jerusalem and process of Judaisation. So they ruled out Jerusalem, and Jerusalem now de facto and de jure not negotiable. West Bank—70% of it, the Israeli laws are applied in it, in the settlements. And what's left—I mean, almost 30 percent and not a single Israeli leader in the last elections said that there will be a Palestinian state in the west of Jordanian River. It's vice versa. All of them said, "No Palestinian state."
Regarding Gaza, Gaza—it's like animal farm after this criminal, illegal, inhuman siege and suffocation and three wars launched in five years. And after all these measures against the Palestinian civilians, the Palestinian civilians, they are in the eye of the storm, and they are the target by Israel. If they are targeting Hamas or Jihad or Fatah or PFLP, we as human rights organizations have nothing to do with that because they are part of the resistance. They have rules of engagements to deal with. But when we are talking, we are talking about bold, clear-cut war crimes, crimes against humanity happening against Palestinian civilians. And they are the ones who are in the eye of the storm, and that is why Israel doing something ugly, bad, when they do the policy of rule of jungle against the Palestinian civilians.
AMY GOODMAN: Raji Sourani, we have to break, but we're going to come back to this discussion. Award-winning human rights lawyer, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, on the executive board of the International Federation for Human Rights, received the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Award in 1991 in Washington, D.C. He is speaking to us from Gaza city. Stay with us.
∂∂ [MUSIC BREAK]
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I'm Amy Goodman. We're joined by Raji Sourani, award-winning human rights lawyer, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights.
He is speaking to us from Gaza City. Was able to make it to the broadcast studio because a ceasefire has been declared. Since Friday, the numbers vary but it is believed 25 Palestinians have been killed, four Israelis have been killed, in the latest escalation of violence. Jehad Abusalim is also with us, a scholar and policy analyst from Gaza. He is now working in the United States for the American Friends Service Committee's Gaza Unlocked campaign. He is speaking to us from Chicago.
I wanted to ask about the comments of Jared Kushner this past week in a 45-minute conversation, although he rarely speaks publicly, at the Washington Institute on Near East Policy, where he said, "If you say 'two-state', it means one thing to Israelis, it means one thing to the Palestinians. We said, 'you know, let's just not say it. Let's just say, let's work on the details of what this means.'" What he is talking about is supposedly the Trump administration is releasing a peace plan at the end of Ramadan which begins on Monday. Jehad Abusalim, have you been following this conversation, what this peace plan looks like? And your response to what has taken place in Gaza over the last few days?
JEHAD ABUSALIM: Mr. Kushner's peace plan is going to be nothing but an affirmation and formalization of the status quo, and of the reality that exists on the ground right now.
What Kushner and the Trump Administration want to do is basically make sure that the facts on the ground that Israel has created over the past decades are to be considered formal and to continue and for the status quo to be perpetuated.
And for Palestinians, this will not change things, because Palestinians already experience these conditions on a daily basis. For Palestinians in the West Bank, they deal on a daily basis with the settlement enterprise, which has been expanding continuously nonstop seizing Palestinian land and turning Palestinian cities, towns and villages into open-air prisons surrounded by walls, checkpoints and fences. And in the Gaza Strip, the blockade will continue, rendering the lives of more than 2 million people into a living hell. These policies, these facts that were created on the ground, will continue with Kushner's peace plan or without it because these are realities that Palestinians experience on a daily basis.
And what is happening in the Gaza Strip is inseparable from this nonstop system of violence that has been targeting Palestinian lives and perpetuating their suffering and pain. I joined your show almost a month ago to talk about a surge of violence in Gaza and around Gaza. And between the beginning of March and the end of March and the beginning of May, although Gaza did not make it to the headlines, the situation in Gaza was still unbearable. The media only pays attention to what is going on in Gaza only when there is military violence. But for Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, as Mr. Sourani explained earlier, the reality is that they are experiencing violence on a daily basis.
Every minute that passes in Gaza is a minute of violence. Every moment that passes is a moment of violence. When people are deprived of their basic rights, they're unable to travel, to move freely to secure their basic necessities, this is violence. And the surge of violence that we just witnessed over the past few days is nothing but a manifestation of frustration on the part of Palestinians as they are trying to tell the world that their suffering and pain shall not go unheard of.
AMY GOODMAN: Jehad, I want to bring back Raji one more time because we will lose him on the broadcast satellite. Raji Sourani, the Middle East regional director for Save the Children Jeremy Stoner has said we may have entered the most serious stage in this crisis since the 2014 Gaza war. You've suggested these attacks are even worse than what happened in 2014 during the so-called Operation Protective Edge. Your final comments on what you think needs to happen now?
RAJI SOURANI: Well, what we need—not a big thing. Basic, fundamental thing. I mean, all what we want is freedom of movement for goods and individuals. Is that too much? Freedom of goods and individuals, for movement of goods and individuals between Gaza and the West Bank and between Gaza, West Bank and the outside world. That is all what we need. We are the stones of the valley, we have been here ever, and we will continue here forever. I am not worried about our fate, about our destiny. We will not give up, and we have no right to give up. We have just, fair and right goals. We know that there is total imbalance in power between us and Israel, between us and Israel and its ally. But we know we are in the right side of history and we know we have just, fair, right goals. We know that tomorrow is ours, irrelevant of the status quo and what's going on at this time of the history.
We will continue having our moral, legal, ethical superiority on a criminal occupation, who do war crime on the daylight against, very unfortunately, civilians. Civilian people. They didn't conclude lesson of history. They didn't understand even what happened with them in the Second World War. And we turned to be the victims of the victim. International law, international humanitarian law and human rights—it is not something invented by the Palestinians. We didn't invent the ICC. These are the crème de la crème of the human experience. We have rightly the right to use it and to use its protection for us. All what we need—rule of law, not the rule of jungle Israel is practicing against Palestine people. That's what we want. We want a protection for civilians.
AMY GOODMAN: Raji Sourani, we want to thank you so much for being with us from Gaza City.
RAJI SOURANI: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: The Palestinian Center for Human Rights there in Gaza. And Jehad Abusalim, Ramadan begins today. Do you expect the ceasefire to hold? And what is your message to the U.S. Congress, as you live here now?
JEHAD ABUSALIM: I don't think the ceasefire will hold, because when we talk about violence in Gaza or in Palestine in general, so long as the conditions that produce violence are in place, we will not cease to witness new surges of violence. And like there was escalation more than a month ago and like there was escalation over this weekend, we are going to witness more of these escalations in the coming new months. And I am afraid that we actually might witness a large-scale confrontation this year. And the reason here is that so long as the root causes of why there is violence and why there is frustration in Palestine are not addressed by the international community and by the concerned parties, there will never be a situation where calm and quiet and peace will be the rule and not the exception.
And this takes us back to the issue of the blockade. When there is a ceasefire in Gaza—and this has been the experience of people over the past months and years—even when there is a ceasefire, the blockade does not cease to affect people's lives on a daily basis. Like I mentioned earlier, the fact that military confrontation is put to an end temporarily, that does not necessarily mean that people's lives improve in Gaza. We are still dealing with unemployment. We are still dealing with collective trauma as a result of these large-scale bombardment campaigns. We are still dealing with people's inability to have their basic rights such as freedom of movement, electricity, water and so on.
So unfortunately, the current political formulas that are put in place, mainly by the U.S. administration, do everything but addressing the root causes of why there is injustice in Palestine. And my message to the U.S. Congress is very clear and simple: Palestinians deserve to live in dignity, Palestinians deserve to have life like any ordinary people in the world, and it is unfair that the world continues to watch as Palestinians in the Gaza Strip suffer under this illegal form of collective punishment that is the Israeli blockade, and Palestinians in the West Bank continue to suffer on a daily basis on check—
After a judge ruled a panel can move forward Saturday at the University of Massachusetts Amherst on "Israel, Free Speech, and the Battle for Palestinian Human Rights," we speak with one of the event's scheduled participants: Roger Waters, co-founder of Pink Floyd, one of the most popular rock bands of all time. He says he welcomes the lawsuit that challenged the event, because "what it does is it serves to shine a light on the predicament of the Palestinian people."
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. "Not Backing Down: Israel, Free Speech, and the Battle for Palestinian Human Rights." That's the title of the panel set to take place Saturday at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Three anonymous UMass students filed a lawsuit to stop the event, claiming they'll, quote, "suffer irreparable harm" if it takes place. But Judge Robert Ullmann ruled on Thursday the event can proceed, saying, quote, "There's nothing that comes even close to a threat of harm or incitement to violence or lawlessness." Meanwhile, the university has backed the event despite the protests, saying it's committed to the principles of free speech and academic freedom.
So, we are joined right now by Pink Floyd founder Roger Waters, who is one of the participants in that event.
Welcome to_Democracy Now!_
ROGER WATERS: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: And talk about why you're doing this on Saturday and the significance of the court ruling.
ROGER WATERS: Well, Sut asked me to come to his university to be on this panel, and I'm delighted to be able to do it.
Thank you, Judge. He was very explicit and brief and to the point in his ruling. He's obviously sound.
My view is that it's a good thing that the organizations are attacking the event, because what it does is it serves to shine light on the predicament of the Palestinian people, who we support. And the more light that is shone on any question of human rights, the better, in my view. So, I'm very glad that they've failed, though, in a way, if they had succeeded in their legal maneuvers, that might have gone even further to shine light on the predicament of the Palestinians, which is what this is about.
You know, something that I say at every show I do now, because I fine my speeches down so they're very short, is, at some point in everybody's life, they have to decide whether or not they believe in the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Paris. If you do—either you believe in it or you don't; you can't have it both ways. And so, if you do believe it, then you have to stand up for people's human rights all over the world, irrespective of their ethnicity or their religion or their nationality, which is what we are doing in this panel at the University of Massachusetts on Saturday.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the backlash against pro-Palestinian voices, including the backlash that you, Roger Waters, have experienced, as a musician, as a human rights activist, as you travel the world?
ROGER WATERS: Well, this particular issue is far more divisive than any other. So, I've just been on tour for a couple of years all over the world. And in many countries, certainly in Europe, in France and in Germany, I came up against an absolute wall of silence, really, particularly in Germany, where nobody in the press, until I spoke to one journalist with a newspaper from Munich—nobody would speak to me, on the grounds that they had been told that I was anti-Semitic and that I could not be spoken to. And the Germans are very sensitive about Jewish affairs, and, in consequence, they are not open to even speaking—even speaking about human rights within the context of Palestine.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the equation of being critical of the Israeli government with anti-Semitism?
ROGER WATERS: Well, I could talk about it, yeah, but what's the point? So much—
AMY GOODMAN: Respond to it.
ROGER WATERS: OK. Well, it's—quite clearly, criticism of any government is nothing to do with anti-Semitism, and certainly criticism of the Israeli government's flouting of international law and abuses of human rights has nothing to do with the Jewish faith or Jewish people. I've had lots of meetings, all over the world, with JVP-sponsored events.
AMY GOODMAN: Jewish Voice for Peace.
ROGER WATERS: Actually, we did one in—the first one we did after I left the States was in Vancouver. And it wasn't JVP, but it was another Jewish organization, Jewish—I can't remember, something other than Voices. And, of course, they are just as humane and care just as much about human rights as everybody else does who cares about human rights. Unfortunately, the Israeli government does not care about human rights, and neither does this government in this country, which is why this administration is supporting the annexing of the Golan Heights and the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and all the rest of it. So, it is very important that those of us who do care organize, meet, have meetings and continue to protest the situation of our Palestinian friends.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring Rachel Weber back into this conversation to address this particular issue of equating being critical of the state of Israel, of the current government in Israel, with being anti-Semitic. You're an attorney and member of Jewish Voice for Peace.
RACHEL WEBER: Yes. Zionism is a political movement. And from the very beginning of that movement in the late 19th century, there's been dissent within Jewish communities around whether or not Zionism was a good idea. And, in fact, right around when the Balfour Declaration was about to be enacted, which gave a mandate for—essentially, that was the beginnings of the establishment of the state of Israel through the British mandate, there were several prominent Jewish members of the British Jewish community that issued a statement in The Times of London about how this was a dangerous idea. So, there's been discussion and debate and disagreement about Zionism from the very beginning within Jewish communities.
So, to say that all Jews feel that Israel—the Israeli government speaks for them is—again, it's inaccurate, and it's incredibly offensive. I have an absolute obligation to protest injustices that are happening in my name, both as a Jew and as an American, given the amount of aid and military resources that this country gives to Israel. It's actually quite offensive to suggest that just because of the—just because of the identities of the people who are running the government in Israel, that because I share some heritage with those people's identities, that I would support anything that they do. And there's a growing voice in this country and around the world of Jews saying Israel does not speak for us, and we have to speak up against the human rights abuses that are happening against Palestinians.
And to say that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, it's incredibly dangerous. And it's actually bad for Jews, because it prevents us from doing the hard work that has to happen to contest white supremacy. White supremacy is what is dangerous for Jews in this country and around the world. And when we use a definition of anti-Semitism that includes criticism of Israel, that actually divides us from—internally. It's a huge divide within the Jewish community in this country. And it also separates us from allies, in working together to fight white supremacy. So, it's actually—it's dangerous, obviously, for Palestinians, because it makes anyone who stands up for Palestinian rights fear that they're going to be accused of being anti-Semitic and smeared, just like in this lawsuit. And it's also dangerous for Jews, because it prevents us from working together internally and with allies to fight white supremacy.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to bring in Sut Jhally again from the University of Massachusetts, a professor of communications, head of the Media Education Foundation. According to reports, you had hoped to bring the Palestinian leader and activist Hanan Ashrawi, but she didn't receive a visa in time. Is this true? And what do you understand happened?
SUT JHALLY: Yes, it's very true. Again, when I was organizing the event, I sent an invitation to Hanan Ashrawi, and she replied and said she very much wanted to come, but she was waiting for a visa, and that she will be back in touch with me, you know, if she got the visa. And she got back in touch with me about two months later and said that she could not include the United States in anything she was going to do, because she was not receiving a visa. And so, you know, Hanan has been coming to the United States for decades. And I don't know if people know, but she's a famed Palestinian legislator, an elected representative of the Palestinian people. And she cannot now come into the country to talk about the issues that confront Palestinians. And this goes along with, just two weeks ago, Marwan [sic] Barghouti, the founder—the co-founder of BDS, was denied a visa to come in.
So, I think this is—I think what is happening at UMass is a kind of microcosm of what's happening everywhere. There is this kind of intense pressure now to make sure that the pro-Palestinian voices or any kind of rational discussion of Israel-Palestine does not happen. At UMass, it's to do with—you know, it's the phone calls. It's the letters that came in. It's the lawsuit. And I think this is an act of desperation on their part. For example, they knew the injunction would never—would never stop this event from taking place. And so, the question is: Why did they go through with it? Why did they spend the thousands of dollars on the lawyers to go through the courts? And I think that it was not an attempt to stop this event, because they knew they couldn't. It was an act of intimidation and bullying for the next one, to tell people, "If you start to think about organizing events around this or start speaking out about this, this is what's going to come down on you."
And I think they're petrified. I think they are terrified of the coalitions that have been building between Palestinian students and Jewish students in organizations like Students for Justice in Palestine. They're terrified of the links that are taking place between the battle for black liberation in the United States and battle for liberation in Palestine. And they want to destroy those and make sure that those voices are not heard, through intimidation and threat.
But the name of our panel is called "Not Backing Down," because I think we're in a new moment right now where there is a space for different kinds of voices to come through, and people are not backing down and are forcing this conversation into the mainstream.
AMY GOODMAN: That was actually Omar Barghouti, one of the organizers of the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions movement, who was not allowed into the United States, despite the fact that he's come here many other times and was also coming for his daughter's wedding. People can see the interview we did with him at democracynow.org.
We also recently spoke to Noam Chomsky, the world-renowned political dissident, linguist and author. He said Democrats are supporting Palestinian rights more now than in the past. He said times have changed.
NOAM CHOMSKY: The support for Israeli expansionism, repression, the whole alliance that's developing, that support has shifted in the United States from the more liberal sectors—roughly, the Democratic Party—to the far right. Not very long ago, support for Israel was based passionately in the liberal sectors of the population. It was a Democratic issue. It isn't anymore. In fact, if you look in the polls, people who identify themselves as Democrats by now tend to support Palestinian rights more than Israel. That's a dramatic change. Support for Israel now is in the most reactionary parts of the population: evangelical Christians, ultranationalists. Basically, it's a far-right issue. Among younger people, this is even more the case.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Noam Chomsky, who had just returned to Boston, to Massachusetts. I was interviewing him at the Old South Church there. About a thousand people packed into the church. Roger Waters, do you feel that kind of optimism? I mean, here, Noam Chomsky has been so critical of the Israeli state for so long, and yet he says he feels there is a different climate right now.
ROGER WATERS: Absolutely. I mean, I've been involved in this struggle only for the last 12 years. But over those 12 years it has changed dramatically. And Noam Chomsky is exactly right. And so is Sut. They are desperate now. That's why they pulled this silly legal stunt about this meeting in UMass. And I'm so happy to see it. And working with people from Jewish Voice for Peace and other Jewish organizations, as well, has developed dramatically over the years, as the demographic within the Jewish community in United States has changed, and they're coming more and more 'round to saying, "Not in my name," and which is hugely encouraging, yeah. I feel overcome, almost, with joy even to be able to speak about it in these terms now. And I'm really looking forward to Saturday in Massachusetts and having—you know, speaking to young people and meeting also the other panelists, all of whom I admire.
AMY GOODMAN: Why risk this criticism? I mean, you are a world-renowned musician, and yet you take this on everywhere you go. Why?
ROGER WATERS: My mom. You know, my mother, when I was young, at one point, she said to me, "You know, at some point in your life, you're going to be faced with difficult decisions. You should think about things, find out as much as you can about anything that you're confronted with, then make up your own mind what it is that you're going to do. There's nearly always the right thing to do. Just do it." This is the right thing to do, and I'm just doing it. So, there's never any sort of question about any of it.
AMY GOODMAN: And what message do you have to other musicians and artists?
ROGER WATERS: Get on board. I mean, a lot of people, a lot of my colleagues in my industry are still very frightened of the industry and of the power in the industry of the Israeli lobby. Just the same as members of Congress are still terrified of AIPAC and the people who fund their elections. That is still there, but it's diminishing, which is—
AMY GOODMAN: It's been quite remarkable to see the number of Democratic presidential candidates who did not address AIPAC this year.
ROGER WATERS: It was a huge change, yeah, and hugely encouraging to us all.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all for being with us, Roger Waters, co-founder of Pink Floyd; Sut Jhally, University of Massachusetts Amherst professor, founder of the Media Education Foundation; and Rachel Weber, attorney and member of Jewish Voice for Peace of Western Massachusetts. This is Democracy Now! We'll be back in 30 seconds.
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