Cogito Ergo Kurd

THE ABSURD TIMES

A COUPLE THINGS

BY

CZAR.DONIC

Hey, we were just talking about you.

First, I have something to say right now.  And you better listen.  Enough of this QUID PRO QUO.  I don't wanna hear you use the phrase again.  As if you learned some Latin?  Come off it already. 

Look, it's like this.  The best part of Grad school was writing my Dissertation.  I had lots of fun with it.  But there was a lot of crap that went on first.  See, we needed two Foreign Languages then or "High Proficiency" in one.  So, I took the German one and later found that I had scored the highest ever at the school of the Princeton Exam.  They said the rules have just changed.  So, I had to pick up another, and I looked around.  I kept saying "I don't want to learn another exam," and people would just shake their heads.  Until a good friend said "You don't have to learn a language, all you have to do is pass a test."  That made all the difference, so I studied for three weeks and passed the French exam. (I think, the lowest possible passing score, but I'm not sure and don't care.)

So, I got through the other stuff and was finally able to work of my dissertation.  What I had determined was that Medieval Scholasticism was almost exactly the same as Boolean Logic, except they didn't have the symbols.  What's why people argue about how many angels can dance of the head of a pin and so on.  These are exercises in logic.

Only one problem: everything they wrote back then, everything "important", was written in Latin, so I had to learn how to read that.  And there was a lot of it!  OK?  So don't try to fucking impress because you learned three words in Latin, second or third hand, from some shyster attorney or TV news reader.  Enough already!

Now, let's go on to see the carry over from the last issue.  Republicans made a big deal about the poor Kurds.  Trump ran away from them with his tail between his legs when he learned that the Turks were coming.   I'm adding this just to complete the story.  It didn't surprise me a bit and I'm glad the Kurds, for awhile, found a new ally.  Guess who?  Just remember we did it.

Here we go:

Syrian troops are massing near the Turkish border, one day after Bashar al-Assad's government reached a deal to help protect the Kurds from Turkey's deadly air and ground assault. On Sunday, the Kurds agreed, in a deal brokered by Russia, to hand over two border towns to the Syrian government in exchange for protection. The Kurds had been allied with the United States up until last week, when President Trump abruptly pulled U.S. troops from northern Syria, paving the way for Turkey's assault. More than 130,000 people have already been displaced over the past five days since Turkey invaded northern Syria. The death toll is unknown. Turkey is facing increasing international condemnation for invading northern Syria. The European Union has called on all member states to stop selling arms to Ankara. We speak with Ozlem Goner, an assistant professor of sociology and anthropology at the City University of New York and a member of the Emergency Committee of Rojava.

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Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Syrian troops are massing near the Turkish border, one day after Syrian President Bashar al-Assad reached a deal to help protect the Kurds from Turkey's deadly air and ground assault. On Sunday, the Kurds agreed, in a deal brokered by Russia, to hand over two border towns to the Syrian government in exchange for protection. The Kurds had been allied with the United States up until last week, when President Trump abruptly pulled U.S. troops from northern Syria, paving the way for Turkey's assault. On Sunday, Defense Secretary Mark Esper announced the U.S. had ordered all remaining U.S. forces out of northern Syria.

More than 130,000 people have already been displaced over the past five days since Turkey invaded northern Syria. The death toll is unknown. Turkey says more than 500, quote, "terrorists" have been "neutralized." Turkey frequently refers to Kurdish groups as "terrorists." The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is reporting Turkish-backed proxies have shot dead nine Kurdish civilians, including a prominent political leader, Hevrin Khalaf, who was killed along with her driver on Saturday. She was the secretary-general of the Future Syria Party.

Kurdish authorities are reporting 785 people affiliated with the Islamic State, including many women and children, escaped from a Kurdish-controlled displacement camp in northern Syria. The escape occurred as Turkish-backed forces shelled nearby targets. On Sunday, President Trump's former Defense Secretary James Mattis warned the current turmoil will lead to a resurgence of ISIS. This comes as The New York Times is reporting U.S. forces failed to transfer five dozen "high value" Islamic State prisoners out of Syria before Trump withdrew troops from northern Syria.

Turkey is facing increasing international condemnation for invading northern Syria. The European Union has called on all member states to stop selling arms to Ankara.

To talk more about the situation in northern Syria, we're joined by Ozlem Goner. She is an assistant professor of sociology and anthropology at the City University of New York and a member of the Emergency Committee of Rojava. She is from Turkey and of Kurdish origin.

Professor Ozlem Goner, thanks so much for being with us. Can you talk about what you understand to be the latest situation now in northern Syria?

OZLEM GONER: Thank you for having me, Amy.

Well, the situation, as you just said, that Kurds needed to have a deal. So we need to just look at the situation just a little back and see that last year — actually, the beginning of this year, in January, President Trump once again said that he's going to withdraw the troops from Syria, and so leaving the Kurds alone. And this didn't happen because there was a lot of reactions against this. And then, at the time, he had said that, "Well, we're going to do this, but in time and in due warning so that our allies there can protect themselves." But this didn't happen, because just a random phone call this past week between Erdoğan and Trump, he all of a sudden decided to take all troops out of there, without any notification, without any time for the Kurdish troops to protect themselves.

So, once they were left unprotected — and it's important to realize that it's not just President Trump, but we tried very hard to develop international solidarity against this, to call for a no-fly zone, so that even if the U.S. troops get out of the place, that the Kurds can be protected with their self-defense measures combined with a no-fly zone, so that Turkey cannot do air attacks, which is the majority of losses last time happened because of this. So, this did not take place. This did not go through. There's no protection, no protection from the U.S. whatsoever. It was just very prompt taking of the troops out of there. So, the Kurds, in order to escape genocide, had to make a deal. And this is a shame, because they had to make a deal with a regime that has been repressing them for decades now in order to protect themselves.

AMY GOODMAN: So, explain what this deal is, how it happened. It was brokered by Russia.

OZLEM GONER: Yes. Yes, it was brokered by Russia. Russia — basically, once the U.S. withdrew from the region, Russia became the major power in the region, controlling and negotiating between Turkey, Assad forces and the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces. So Russia is the only actor in the playing field right now, in addition to Iran, but right now we're speaking of the Russian leadership. And so, the terms of the deal are still unknown, because, you know, for the part of the Kurds, their urgent need for self-protection and to prevent genocide made them just urgently accept this offer from the Assad regime. Their hope is that they can keep their autonomy. This was what the leaders of the Syrian Democratic Forces were saying, that this is just to protect the borders for now and to prevent the Turkish invasion, Turkish war, Turkish genocide — I mean, Kurdish genocide at the hands of Turkish forces.

And especially, just you mentioned this, and it's very important to understand, that Turkey — it's not just the ISIS fighters escaped. Turkey actually bombed the ISIS prisons so that they can escape. So Turkey is — I mean, actually, Süleyman Soylu, the Turkish interior minister, five days ago, when asked at a TV program, when Turks were concerned about the potential ISIS attack, he was like, "Be comfortable. No need to be concerned. They don't have any option but to ally with us." So they're very openly allying with ISIS.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let's go to President Trump, who was responding to questions from reporters last week —

OZLEM GONER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — asking what will happen to ISIS fighters in the region who are imprisoned and who could escape. He said, "Well, they'll escape to Europe."

OZLEM GONER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: This is what he said.

REPORTER: ISIS fighters escape and pose a threat elsewhere.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, they're going to be escaping to Europe. That's where they want to go. They want to go back to their homes, but Europe didn't want them from us.

AMY GOODMAN: Your response to what Trump just said?

OZLEM GONER: Well, this is — I mean, you know, this is just outrageous. This is just outrageous. I mean, there is the reemergence and resurgence of ISIS that happened because of Trump's sudden decision to withdraw the troops, without any protection whatsoever, without any plan to do something with these ISIS fighters and also their families. And it's very important to understand what we call ISIS families is women and children. These are fighters. They have done enormous human rights violations in the regions. There's tons of interviews with these women in the camps, in the refugee camps. And so, they are letting them free to kill the Kurds aligned with the Turkish forces. So, Trump says that it's Europe's responsibility, but, obviously —

AMY GOODMAN: Trump said, actually — he said that —

OZLEM GONER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: Oh, the ISIS fighters — 

OZLEM GONER: They will — yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — will go to Europe.

OZLEM GONER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: But he made very clear they will not come to the United States.

OZLEM GONER: Well, I mean, we know what happened. We know how they can mobilize to attack and make terrorist attacks in all parts of the world. So, this is — I mean, and especially for someone who's been using this discourse of terror for such a long time and threat for such a long time, it's outrageous not to see the imminent threat. And it's outrageous to not see the cooperation of Turkey and the open statement that we're going to cooperate with ISIS, that we're going to use the forces, the jihadists, the ISIS, in addition to the Turkish land forces and air forces, to attack an unprotected territory. And the only means that these people have is self-defense. And it's important to understand that this is not just the Kurds in the region who are under threat, but the minorities and religious minorities who have been especially targeted by ISIS. So they are looking for revenge. They're looking for, first, exterminating these leftover populations, that they started — you know, the Yazidi genocide that they had committed and enslaved thousands. I mean, and letting them both operate in that region and then saying they will go to Europe, and we know the danger that they impose to world, this is basically President Trump's fault. But also — yes.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you say about Trump tweeting today, "Kurds may be releasing some to get U.S. [sic] involved" — "to get us involved"?

OZLEM GONER: Well, this is — I mean, we all — tweeting. Who tweets about these issues? Who tweets — seriously. Why would Kurds do that? We know — I mean, we just — this is — just to bring a human face to this, we saw a woman holding her baby, crying — her dead baby — saying that "We have fled Kobani." Her husband died in Kobani. Now her daughter died, again at the hands of Turkish forces, again cooperating with the jihadists and ISIS. Why would they do such — I mean, ISIS, the major — the losses that the Kurds suffer at the hands of ISIS is 11,000 people. And these are civilians.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain, 11,000 people who —

OZLEM GONER: Eleven thousand people fighting against ISIS were killed. So the major losses —

AMY GOODMAN: In northern Syria.

OZLEM GONER: In northern Syria. I mean, so, Trump, as we know, historically, there is the role of Europe by colonizing this region of the world, by separating Kurds into four different nation-states, who repress Kurds in different forms, and we weren't able to build international solidarity to protect, to do something against this colonization over the century. And then, this is important because then the U.S., when he — it's important to say that when he says, "We don't have a responsibility. It's not our fault," who created the jihadis? Who created ISIS? Who made it in such a big threat to the world in the first place? So we need to understand U.S. involvement in this region.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain that history.

OZLEM GONER: So, if you look at it, Europe, first, because it was the colonizing agent of the early construction of this region and early separation of Kurds under four nation-states, denying their sovereignty, so denying their self-defense. And also, right now everybody is like, "Who is terrorist? PKK." And Erdoğan is using this, that they are terrorists: "We have annihilated 400, 500" — they are called "terrorists," because Europe had denied sovereignty from them. And so, when they were denied to be a nation-state, their forces of self-protection, self-defense was called terrorism.

And so, and then, we know the World War II and the U.S. involvement in this region, and so how the U.S. has created these — first, it initiated, you know, the Assad regime, these regimes, these repressive regimes, to suppress the left in the Middle East in different countries, the Baath regime in Iraq and the Turkish Sunni Islamic, neoliberal, capitalist regimes, the right regimes, against the Turkish left. So they have cultivated this region. And then we know, since early 2000, especially following September 11, it's created this war on so-called terror, reviving, recreating these jihadist forces, these Islamic forces, and letting them to run the region according to the U.S. interests. You know, so the major role that the U.S. has played in creating these monsters, that then killed, massacred the people of the region, and then denying responsibility for this is outrageous.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you — I want to ask you about Hevrin Khalaf.

OZLEM GONER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that Turkish-backed proxies shot dead nine Kurdish civilians, including —

OZLEM GONER: That's right.

AMY GOODMAN: — this prominent political leader. She was the secretary-general of the Future Syria Party. Who was she?

OZLEM GONER: Well, she was a human rights defender. She was also working — as you know, one of the major successes of the Syrian revolution has been to promote women and has been to fight against patriarchy. So, she was one of these major figures, a human rights defender, who was very active. And this is — you know, they attack — they will attack, first, human rights defenders. They will attack women, as this act is showing, that especially the jihadi and ISIS forces have been very famous in attacking. And as you know, she was — you know, we don't know the exact what happened there exactly, but we know that there was sexual violence. And so, this is very important that they are going to attack these people who have been cultivating a democratic, nonpatriarchal, gender-egalitarian system, because this is what — not just ISIS, but the Turkish government is standing with the jihadis, who are very suppressive, very patriarchal, and who want to — who can't tolerate women being in the forefront. And so, women have been the targets first. Women, and then it's going to be the religious minorities, obviously all Kurds.

So, there is — you know, I mean, it's just outrageous, not just what the Trump administration did. But I think it's time for also the left to rethink about Turkey's attempts to become the regional power, and to see how Turkey's colonizing these places, these people, with the use of the jihadis and ISIS, and to be against this, to be against — really create a strong stance against this.

AMY GOODMAN: So, President Trump, at about the same time that he had his conversation with Erdoğan two Sundays ago and then announced that the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops — not that he's saying they'll go home, because it was then almost immediately announced that the Pentagon is going to send 1,800 more troops —

OZLEM GONER: Yes, yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — on top of the thousands more they had already said a few weeks before, to Saudi Arabia.

OZLEM GONER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: The significance of this?

OZLEM GONER: So, thank you so much for bringing that, Amy, because people think, "Well, they celebrated." And this was — this is why I'm —

AMY GOODMAN: Well, antiwar forces who really want to end the war.

OZLEM GONER: And I'm emphasizing — and this is what I am saying that the U.S. left should really reconsider, its foreign policy and its understanding of the region, and how this region and the cultivation of this region has been based on colonialism and imperialism, and because — because the troops are a very minor part of the role of the U.S. in the region. Well, first of all, it's replacing these troops, so we're not even talking about the troops leaving the region. It's just putting the troops, taking them from here and putting them there, so letting these people get massacred because "I made a deal with Turkey" and then because we're in good relations with — so, we're going to send them there. So, first of all, troops, even though it's a minor issue in the whole region and the governing of the region, even the troops are not brought back to the U.S. They're just replaced. But also there's much more. I mean, the armament deal, where is Turkey getting its weapons? Where is Turkey getting its airplanes to attack one of the most defenseless populations of the world? It's getting it from the U.S. and European companies. So their complicity in this war against Kurds in the past century, and especially this recent episode, is very striking and is —

AMY GOODMAN: Trump also, after announcing they were withdrawing troops from that area, not necessarily bringing them home, also announced he'll be having a meeting at the White House with Erdoğan. The Washington Post ran a piece saying Trump's decision on Syria crystallizes questions about his business and his presidency.

OZLEM GONER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: The article notes Trump himself has acknowledged his conflict of interest with Turkey. Even after Trump became president, Trump Towers Istanbul remained part of the Trump Organization, continued to generate revenue for Trump himself.

OZLEM GONER: Exactly. Trump doesn't have business interests in Rojava. When he's saying, "Well, we don't have interests in there," he doesn't have interests in there. He doesn't have hotels, he doesn't have companies in Rojava. And we all know that Rojava is an anti-capitalist, anti-patriarchal, ecologically friendly, ecologically sensitive democracy, pluralist democracy.

AMY GOODMAN: This area of northern Syria.

OZLEM GONER: This area of northern Syria that's led by Kurdish coalition forces and also other ethnic minorities, religious minorities, who were able to live peacefully in a region that was under the attack of ISIS. And in the midst of the war, they were able to create a pluralist, feminist, ecological democracy. So, obviously, Trump's interest does not lie with this. His economic interest does not lie with this region. His ideological interest does not lie with. So, that is why it is us, the U.S. and the left, who needs to see and see what's happening and to support this region.

AMY GOODMAN: As we wrap up, what happens now? The Kurds have made a deal with Syria.

OZLEM GONER: Yes. So, what happens now is that we really need to push for the Kurdish autonomy. Mazlum Kobani, one of the leaders, commanders of the Syrian Democratic Forces, said that we had to make this deal to protect our people against genocide. So, and it's important because we need to make sure that we create international solidarity, that, first of all, I mean, there are economic sanctions against Turkey, to try everything to bring, you know, the Turkish occupation down, but, at the same time, to make sure that Syrian Democratic Forces is a legitimate political actor, while we're pushing the leaders to bring Turkey to make peace in the region, and Syrian Democratic Forces to establish its autonomy, because this is under threat. And right now they're making this deal. They might lose their autonomy. They might be giving in to the regime. The regime, the Assad regime, has been —

AMY GOODMAN: Which they have fought for so long.

OZLEM GONER: The Assad regime has been violent against Kurds for decades. It's not like they want to make this negotiation. They have to, because the U.S. left them unprotected, because the U.S. was not able to establish a no-fly zone that would give them some protection. And now Assad can imprison, can torture, can kill, can murder the leaders of the Syrian Democratic Forces. And this really reminds me of, you know, early Turkish massacres where the leaders of the Kurds, such as in Dersim, which is my region, had to negotiate with the Turkish. They had to give in, themselves, and to protect their people. So, they're doing this to prevent a genocide, because Trump administration betrayed them and because the U.S. left does not — and the European left, the world left has not developed mechanisms and solidarity to protect them. So, it's a shame that they had to turn to another dictator to protect themselves from one dictator.

AMY GOODMAN: Ozlem Goner, I want to thank you for being with us — of course, we'll continue to follow this — assistant professor of sociology and anthropology at the City University of New York, member of the Emergency Committee of Rojava.

Virus-free. www.avg.com

SYRIA AND THE KURDS

THE ABSURD TIMES

I;;ustration: Since a lot of religion gets mssed into these issues, here is the Christian side, by Redd Foxx.

Syria, the World, and the Kurds

By

Czar Donic

I'll start out with letting all the hyperemotional Kurd lovers a note of equal time.  At the bottom of this is a long interview illustrating how poorly the Kurds have been treated over time and how we should weep for them.  OK?  So, scroll down and weep and feel good about yourselves.  I want to talk about what is really going on.

First off, Assad bears a great deal of the blame for being too much of a nice guy.  Let me tell you a little bit about Homs, or Homa, or whatever.  Assad's Dad ran the country for a long time until the Moslem Brotherhood tried to overthrow him.  Here is what happened:  "In response to an attempted uprising by the brotherhood in February 1982, the government crushed the fundamentalist opposition centered in the city of Hama, leveling parts of the city with artillery fire and causing many thousands of dead and wounded. During the rest of Hafez al-Assad's reign, public manifestations of anti-government activity were very limited."  (I just stole that to avoid having to type it out again.  If you know about Syria, you know it's true.  If you don't, trust me. In other words, he stopped the crap in one month and that was that.  He also helped stop a civil war in Lebanon and many other things.

So, he dies (as people do).  His first son is supposed to take over and he was trained for the job and ready.  He dies (as people do).  The lines keep going until Hafaez (the current one) winds up in charge.  Now this guy, who was an eye doctor in England, a good one, and doing well.  That's all he really wanted to be.  Well, he winds up in charge and has to move there with his British wife.  The last thing on his mind was running Syria on the Border with Israel and so forth.  His assessment of Endogen of Turkey, live on the BBC-TV, was that he "wants to be an Emperor."  In other words, he wanted to go back to the old Ottoman Empire.  (Forget I brought that up – we don't have time for it now.) 

So, during the so-called "Arab Spring," which the U.S., Hillary was a major force, this turned into a major campaign of "Regime Change."  Sisi, the guy we have in charge, was trained by us (so was Morsi).  Anyway, back to Homs:  this time it is some group calling itself "democratic" and then the "Free Syrian Army" starts to cause trouble.  Instead of bombing the crap out of them, Assad starts to negotiate and try to get along.  Then comes ISIS (trained by us, the leader was a graduate of Abu Gharab (once a College of Agriculture under Saddam), ISIS starts to take over the Mideast.  It's a bunch of weird, nutty fanatics.  They slice people heads off, auction off girls and women to each other and so on.  Bashir just wanted to be a damn eye doctor!  So now, he starts to get pissed.  We join in, Russia joins in, Nato joins in, Turkey joins in, and the Kurds join in.

Well, now it's time to remind you of something that sound a bit out of context.  Remember the "Pirates off of Somalia?"  The Blackhawk down, and so on?  Why do you suppose that stopped?  Well, these pirates kept stopping ships and getting ransom, one after another, until they made the mistake of capturing a Russian ship.  Putin blew the whole dam thing up in the water, and we never heard about another pirate at all (except for Hollywood movies).  Well, that's what they should have done in Syria.  We would never have had the problem in the first place. 

Ok, so now they go on with the ISIS part of this.  Everyone hates ISIS.  The Kurds were supposed to get their own homeland as the west divided up the Mideast after WWI and gave a large chunk of the Ottoman Empire to them.  (The Russians had already made their own deal.)  Trouble is, we ignored the problem when Turkey decided to keep that chunk.  The only country to give them any autonomy was Iraq under Saddam Hussein, limited Autonomy, and they just kept wanting more, and more.  Iran said "no way."  Sure Saddam gassed them.  Is that any worse than what turkey is doing and what we did in leaving them there?  The truth is, no country wants them.  The only reason they fought ISIS was that they thought they would get a chunk of Northern Syria as a result.  We see what happened as a result.  So, there it is.

Now, here are the Kurds talking, openly, plenty of freedom to present their opinion, as Amy can always be counted on doing for anybody:

The Kurdish side:

Turkey has launched an aerial and ground assault on northern Syria targeting Kurdish-controlled areas. The offensive began Wednesday, just days after President Trump ordered U.S. troops to fall back from their positions on the Turkish-Syrian border. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reports at least 16 Kurds have been killed so far. Turkey is claiming the death toll is far higher. The Trump administration has faced widespread criticism from both Republican and Democratic lawmakers for abandoning the stateless Kurds who had helped the U.S. fight ISIS. Turkey is claiming the assault is needed to establish a "safe zone" in northern Syria where Turkey could relocate Syrian refugees who fled over the past eight years of fighting, but the Kurds see the offensive as part of a decades-long attack by Turkey to crush their attempts at greater autonomy. The Kurds have been responsible for holding over 10,000 ISIS fighters and their families in detention. While Trump has claimed Turkey will take control of the makeshift jails, there is growing concern many former ISIS fighters will be able to escape during the Turkish assault. At least one Kurdish prison has already been shelled. To discuss the implications of Turkey's assault, we speak with Elif Sarican, a Kurdish Women's Movement activist and anthropologist at the London School of Economics. We also speak with Ertuğrul Kürkçü, honorary chair of the pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party in Turkey, known as the HDP. He is a former member of Parliament in Turkey.

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Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Turkey has launched an aerial and ground assault on northern Syria targeting Kurdish-controlled areas. The offensive began Wednesday, just days after President Trump ordered U.S. troops to fall back from their positions on the Turkish-Syrian border. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reports at least 16 Kurds have been killed so far. Turkey is claiming the death toll is far higher. Some of the heaviest fighting has been in the Syrian town of Tel Abyad. Turkish jets and artillery have reportedly hit at least 81 targets east of the Euphrates River.

The Trump administration has faced widespread criticism from both Republican and Democratic lawmakers for abandoning the stateless Kurds who had helped the U.S. fight ISIS. Turkey is claiming the assault is needed to establish a, quote, "safe zone" in northern Syria where Turkey could relocate Syrian refugees who fled over the past eight years of fighting. But the Kurds see the offensive as part of a decades-long attack by Turkey to crush their attempts at greater autonomy.

AMY GOODMAN: Fear is also growing that the Turkish assault could lead to the mass release of ISIS fighters. Up until now, the Kurds have been responsible for holding over 10,000 ISIS fighters and their families in detention. While President Trump has claimed Turkey will take control of the makeshift jails, there's growing concern many former ISIS fighters will be able to escape during the Turkish assault. At least one Kurdish prison has already been shelled. The New York Times is reporting the U.S. military has moved as many as several dozen Islamic State prisoners to more secure locations. This includes two British members of ISIS who are accused of beheading Western hostages, including the journalists James Foley and Steven Sotloff.

The Turkey assault is facing international condemnation. The U.N. Security Council is expected to meet later today. The European Union has warned Turkey's hostilities would, quote, "further undermine the stability of the whole region." Earlier today, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has threatened to send millions of Syrian refugees to Europe if Turkey's assault is criticized.

PRESIDENT RECEP TAYYIP ERDOĞAN: [translated] Hey, European Union, pull yourself together. I say it again. If you try to label this operation as an invasion, it's very simple: We will open the gates and send 3.6 million refugees your way.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: On Wednesday, President Trump described Turkey's assault as a "bad idea" but defended his decision to shift U.S. troops away from the Syrian-Turkish border.

Here in New York, protesters demonstrated on Wednesday in front of the offices of Democratic Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand in New York City, demanding the U.S. defend the Kurdish autonomous region known as Rojava. This is Ozlem Goner, an assistant professor of sociology and anthropology at CUNY, the City University of New York.

OZLEM GONER: Kurds have lost thousands, tens of thousands of lives, their homes, their lands, their agricultural production — so, all their livelihood — in order to defeat ISIS so that European and U.S. citizens are comfortable in their homes. And now they are once again paying with their lives for having protected our lives.

AMY GOODMAN: We're starting right now with two guests. In London, we're joined by Elif Sarican, a Kurdish Women's Movement activist. She's an anthropologist at the London School of Economics. In Brussels, Belgium, we're joined by Ertuğrul Kürkçü, the honorary chair of the pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party, known as the HDP. He's a former member of Parliament in Turkey.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Elif Sarican, let's begin with you. Let's start at the beginning, what we understand and what you understand is happening on the ground now. You have this conversation last Sunday between President Trump and the Turkish President Erdoğan, and apparently Trump tells him the U.S. will pull troops back in northern Syria, and Erdoğan makes very clear he is going to attack this area with Turkish troops. Explain what has happened since.

ELIF SARICAN: I mean, just to give it some context, you know, this is not a new development. Erdoğan has been trying to push for this for many months, if not years. And finally, somehow, through quite a mysterious and unclear phone conversation, Trump agreed to withdraw the few U.S. soldiers that were positioned there. And just to make clear that the U.S. Army, the U.S., Trump himself, the Syrian Democratic Forces and Turkey were well aware that these troops still remained posted there essentially to act as human shields to stop a Turkish invasion.

Now, what we saw yesterday was the beginning of this invasion, the long-promised invasion by Turkish President Erdoğan. And, you know, as many people have said, as there's a consensus all around the world and with public opinion, is the consequences of this can be grave and will be grave. It's not only that it's essentially threatening a Kurdish genocide; it will — it's not even just a possibility, it will — create and cause the resurgence of ISIS. It will add to the international refugee crisis. But also, equally as importantly, it will crush the democratic, ecological and women's liberationist experiment that has been happening there, as well as the Kurds fighting against ISIS.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Elif, the situation is quite extraordinary. A U.S.-NATO ally, Turkey, is relentlessly attacking, with U.S.-made arms and ammunition, a U.S. ally, the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces, who were also trained and armed by the U.S. Now, what do you understand is happening today? In these last two days, what do we know about casualties, both civilian, Kurdish civilian casualties, as well as casualties among the SDF?

ELIF SARICAN: So, because the situation is unfolding so quickly, it's quite difficult to get any precise figures at this moment, but some of the official figures that we've had in the last 24 hours is that there's over 10 civilians that have been killed, there's at least 15 injured civilians. And also CNN reported Clarissa Ward was going through part of the region yesterday and reported quite horrific scenes of civilians killed but left on the street, because people can't get to them because the shelling is so intense. And in terms of the SDF, again, we don't know the exact figures. We know there's clashes, with the six coordinated attacks in six border areas of northern Syria, and the Turkish Army with its allied jihadi forces don't seem to want to stop, by any means.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring Ertuğrul Kürkçü into the conversation and get your response to what President Trump is now just saying. Kurdish forces have fought alongside the U.S. against ISIS for nearly half a decade, nearly 11,000 fighters dead. On Wednesday, Trump criticized the Kurds, saying they didn't help the United States during the battle of Normandy in World War II. This is Trump speaking to reporters at the White House during an event in the Roosevelt Room.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Now the Kurds are fighting for their land, just so you understand. They're fighting for their land. And as somebody wrote in a very, very powerful article today, they didn't help us in the Second World War. They didn't help us with Normandy, as an example. They mention names of different battles.

AMY GOODMAN: And he also said — The Washington Post is reporting the U.S. military has no plans to intervene if Syrian Kurdish forces leave their posts guarding ISIS prisons, raising the question of what will happen to the 11,000 ISIS militants and their families currently detained in some 20 prisons and camps under Kurdish control. So the president, Trump, was asked about this Wednesday.

REPORTER: ISIS fighters escape and pose a threat elsewhere.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Well, they're going to be escaping to Europe. That's where they want to go. They want to go back to their homes, but Europe didn't want them, for months.

AMY GOODMAN: Ertuğrul Kürkçü, you're honorary chair of the pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party. If you could respond to both of these points, that the Kurds didn't help the U.S. at Normandy in World War II and if the ISIS prisoners get freed, they can — they will go to Europe?

ERTUĞRUL KÜRKÇÜ: Yeah, this is horrific, not only for the Kurds, but for all the world and for the Americans themselves, that they are governed by the most ignorant person in the world as a statesman. He doesn't even know that the Kurds didn't have a stake: They were not a party to the Second World War. They were enslaved by four different countries in the Middle East. And he is now speaking about the war in Normandy and why the Kurds weren't there. So he is totally ignorant of the realities of the world order, which was based on the outcome of the Second World War.

And secondly, he has no understanding of ISIS and what it means for the civilized world and Middle East and Europe, why ISIS is a problem not only the United States or Europe, but for the United Nations. ISIS is one of the two groups — one is al-Qaeda, and the second on is ISIS — which is pinpointed by the United Nations as the terrorist organizations which could be — whom should be stopped by international cooperation. And that's why the United States is having a function in the Middle East. This was not Trump's own idea.

What I would like to say, that it was the worst idea also by the Obama administration to intervene in the Middle East affairs, to export regime change in Syria, which deeply changed all the course of things in the Middle East and in Syria. And at the middle of the road, the Obama administration changed their course and took the ISIS as the enemy number one. This was a better understanding of the course of things.

But Trump doesn't understand why this was an immense problem for the American interests, as well as the Syrian interests and as well as the Kurdish interests. So, it's a pity that the United States and the world is now — is between the lips of an ignorant and a reckless person who is the leader of the United States, the number one country in the world, which assumes huge responsibilities for the peace in the world, for the stability in the region, and therefore a world where people will have to live in reconciliation. So, now Donald Trump himself may be the biggest problem for the Middle East peace.

AMY GOODMAN: And his response, what will happen to ISIS prisoners that escape from prisons, that they'll simply go to Europe?

ERTUĞRUL KÜRKÇÜ: Actually, the real situation in the field is even more problematic than Donald Trump believes to be. They are not only going to escape to Europe; they are going to operate in Turkey. And until this day, during ISIS massacres, around 200 Turkish people, 99% of whom are government dissidents, have been killed. And today, in a very interesting statement, the Turkish minister of domestic affairs, or the interior minister, in response to a question, says, "ISIS doesn't have any other opportunity than to cooperate with us, because they are at loggerheads with all the world, so they should coalesce with us." Now we have a country led by a government, an interior minister, who believes ISIS will be their ally.

So, we have done two problems. One is the Turkish official approach to ISIS, a kind of an ally against the Kurds. And the second one is that Donald Trump, that ISIS is a European problem, so that Europeans should tackle with the problem. It doesn't mean anything for Donald Trump. But he forgets 9/11, I think. They were in the United States and cost the lives of 3,000 Americans. It's a pity that, really, this guy is leading the United States. Where? Into an abyss, I see.

AMY GOODMAN: We're going to break, then come back to this discussion. Ertuğrul Kürkçü, honorary chair of the pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party, is speaking to us from Brussels, Belgium. And Elif Sarican is a Kurdish Women's Movement activist, speaking to us from London. We will also be joined by Debbie Bookchin, co-founder of the Emergency Committee for Rojava. This is Democracy Now! Back in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: "Dear Viyan" by Miranda De La Frontera. This is Democracy Now! I'm Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. Our guests are Ertuğrul Kürkçü, the honorary chair of the pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party, joining us from Brussels in Belgium, and Elif Sarican, a Kurdish Women's Movement activist. Also, Debbie Bookchin is with us in New York, co-founder of the Emergency Committee for Rojava.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: I'd like to ask Elif — you said earlier, of course, that there is a real risk of a Kurdish genocide, given what's happening. And it's important, I think, to remind people that over 10,000 SDF fighters have died in the fight against ISIS. And the question is: Now, given this overwhelming Turkish assault in northeast Syria, are the Kurds likely to receive any support from anybody? Some have said that they're likely to be forced to turn to Assad in an attempt to defend themselves against this assault. Could you talk about whether you think that's true and what the implications of that would be for the Kurds?

ELIF SARICAN: So, Amy [sic], as you say, there's been 11,000 people martyred in the fight against ISIS. There's 22,000 wounded in this fight, including many international volunteers, from the U.S., from the U.K., as well, and other countries included.

Now, to see what the consequences of a Turkish invasion will be, we don't have to look too far. In January 2018, the Turkish Army, again allied with ground jihadi forces, invaded Afrin, causing, in a couple of months, 1,000 — killing 1,000 people, mostly civilians, causing the displacement of 300,000 people, out of a population of 800,000, again, mostly Kurdish people. So, even at that time, and now it continues, the Syrian Democratic Council, which is the umbrella formation that also includes the Syrian Democratic Forces, have said they will negotiate, and they will sit at tables — at a table with any actor in the region to bring about a peaceful solution to the conflict and the situation of the region and, you know, the effects of it on the wider Middle East and also the world.

So, this does bring the question of the ultimate aim of all of this needs to be, of course, as we said, the U.S. was — the U.S. soldiers were acting as human shields, essentially, but, you know, that was always going to be a solution that expired. So, the solution must be that — and, you know, the recognition is that this is, in some ways, less about the U.S., but more about the Turkish invasion, if that makes sense. So, therefore, the solution must be, you know, whether it's including Syria, as well, and Russia and the U.S. and all of the actors in the region, including Turkey, too — why not? — to be able to come to a political, diplomatic and peaceful solution to the future of the people of Syria, in general, which means the Syrian Democratic Council being included in the rewriting of the Syrian constitution, and being included in political developments of the region, as well.

And this is one of the reasons why the situation has got to where it has got to today, because there was a tactical alliance between the U.S. and the Syrian Democratic Forces in the fight against ISIS, but strategically there was never any political alliances. And this is what needs to be developed right now, because the question isn't — I don't think the question should be whether U.S. soldiers should return there or not. Of course, as a short-term solution, that would solve — you know, solve the or push back the invasion, and therefore save the lives of millions of people. But ultimately there needs to be a political solution, and that's what the people of northern Syria and the Syrian Democratic Council have been continuing to call for.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Elif, as you know, one of the principal objectives that Erdoğan has said for the military invasion is creating a safe zone to which millions of Syrian refugees can be returned. But there have been numerous reports of Turkey recently violently deporting thousands of Syrian refugee men and boys back to Syria. Turkish border guards have reportedly shot and killed Syrians when they tried returning to Turkey to reunite with their families. Now, you've spent time talking to Syrian refugees who have attempted to flee through Turkey. What did the Syrian refugees tell you about how they've been treated by Turkey?

ELIF SARICAN: So, I was in a refugee camp in Greece in 2016, and I spent a short time with them and, you know, talking with them, discussing with them. Most of them, at this camp, happened to be Kurdish, but there was also Syrian Arabs and other peoples at this camp, as well. And it was a — you know, it was almost every single person we spoke to, spoke about the brutality of the Turkish authorities at the border of when they were trying to cross, the extortion of these people, making — you know, confiscating their belongings, their goods. If they had any gold or money on them to, obviously, try and live and look after their families, a lot of the time these were confiscated. They reported things like doing work for — working at some of these — trying to work at local places, and because there was no protection, their wages not being paid. And, you know, so, therefore, shooting refugees trying to flee into Turkey in the first place is not a new thing. Now the forcing of Syrian refugees back into Syria, again, almost entirely, is not a voluntary move.

So, Erdoğan declaring at the General Assembly of the United Nations on the 24th of September, with a map, essentially declaring that he was going to alter the demographic of this region and, quote-unquote, "settle" his Syrian brothers and sisters in this region, is absolutely unprecedented, because often world leaders do not declare beforehand that they're about to commit war crimes. You know, firstly, an unprovoked attack is, obviously, by definition, by the U.N. and Nuremberg principle, a war crime. But also, to force the movement of people involuntarily and also to alter the demographic of a region is, again, by definition, ethnic cleansing. And Erdoğan declared all of this publicly at the United Nations a few weeks ago. But for some reason, he can do it and get away with it, which, to us on the receiving end, seems bizarre. But it also seems like he's very, very good, as you've already mentioned today, at blackmailing Europe with the 3.5 million Syrian refugees that he holds in Turkey — unfortunately, in very bad conditions. But nonetheless they're there, and he's somehow preventing them from getting to Europe.

AMY GOODMAN: I also want to bring —

ELIF SARICAN: But it's also —

As Turkey launches an aerial and ground assault on northern Syria targeting Kurdish-controlled areas, we look at how the offensive threatens the Kurdish region of Rojava with Debbie Bookchin, co-founder of the Emergency Committee for Rojava. She is a journalist and author who co-edited a book of essays by her father, Murray Bookchin, "The Next Revolution: Popular Assemblies and the Promise of Direct Democracy." We also speak with Elif Sarican, a Kurdish Women's Movement activist and anthropologist at the London School of Economics, and Ertuğrul Kürkçü, honorary chair of the pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party in Turkey, known as the HDP. He is a former member of Parliament in Turkey.

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Transcript

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring into this conversation Debbie Bookchin, co-founder of the Emergency Committee for Rojava. Her father, the late political philosopher Murray Bookchin, helped to inspire the Kurdish movement in Rojava. She just returned from there a few months ago and wrote a piece for The New York Review of Books titled "What the West Owes Its Best Ally Against ISIS." There are many who have not heard of Rojava, Debbie. If you can explain what it is and its significance today in what's happening just this week?

DEBBIE BOOKCHIN: That's right. Thank you, Amy. You know, one of the things that we focus on is ISIS, which has obviously been a critically important part of the United States' relationship with the Kurds. But in addition to discussing what the Kurds have been fighting against, it's incredibly and critically important, and especially to the progressive community in the American left, to talk about what they are fighting for. And that is a society that is really unparalleled right now in the 21st century. It is a society that is focused on the ideals of grassroots democracy, feminism and ecology. And —

AMY GOODMAN: And explain exactly where Rojava is.

DEBBIE BOOKCHIN: Well, Rojava is along the northern third of Syria. It is now — the Kurds are really helping [inaudible] a huge land mass, basically a third of Syria, which is another reason why it's absurd that they are not being included as part of the negotiations on the future of Syria.

But I think what's critically important — and I am very proud of the fact that a lot of my father's ideas have influenced the Rojavan society. What is critically important is that they are saying that we have to create a society that truly empowers people at the local level. And that means, especially in the Middle East, a feminist society. And I was just there, and I had the opportunity to talk to many people. And if you look at what they are doing there, and if you look at, for example, the social contract, which is their equivalent of our Constitution, it enshrines the rights of women, in a way that puts our Constitution to shame, frankly. So, really, we're talking about a very progressive society. And I think anybody in the United States, anywhere in the world, who considers themselves a progressive or a feminist should be very strongly behind the Rojava project. So, that's one very, very important aspect of it.

And I think that the other thing that I just want to emphasize is that, you know, there are not only 10,000 or 12,000 ISIS prisoners, but there are also 100,000 families that are now being held in camps. And many of these women — there's many children, of course, as well — but many of them, especially the ones who streamed out of Baghouz near the end of the so-called caliphate, the defeat of the caliphate, are very hardcore, serious jihadists. So, for Trump to say that this is not going to be a problem for us is an absurd thing to say. And you can imagine that they're jumping for joy right now. But I think it's really very — it is very important.

And I would actually like to say that, you know, I think that it's, in a certain sense, to the enduring shame of the progressive community in the American left that there hasn't been more support for Rojava over the years. We haven't heard our Democratic candidates really even talk about Syria. And this is a — and part of the reason that this can be happening, especially after what we saw in Afrin, where the [Turkish] Army — and it's really mostly a jihadi militia that the [Turks] have employed, because, as you know, after the coup attempt, Erdoğan got rid of a good chunk of his Army. So, you have essentially thugs who have come in and taken this once-peaceful region of Rojava called Afrin and turned it into basically an extension of a Turkish Islamic State, in which they've taken away people's rights, in which they've looted, robbed, kidnapped people. And this is what we can look forward to. This is what's going to happen in the rest of Rojava. And it is truly incumbent on all of us who claim to care for progressive values to stand up, to demand a no-fly zone for Rojava, to go to our representatives and say, "You know what? Tweeting your crocodile tears is not enough. We have to actually become active." And the progressive left should really play a huge role in this. It is not something that we should cede to the Republicans.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring Ertuğrul Kürkçü back into the conversation in Brussels and ask you to respond to what Debbie is saying, but also to talk about the significance of the military that is now invading Syria. We're talking about the second-largest army in NATO?

ERTUĞRUL KÜRKÇÜ: Actually, this is the exact example of what an unjust war is. It has no legal basis. It has no legitimate basis for Turkey's security. It has no aim of bringing peace to any part of the world. But it is just designed for Tayyip Erdoğan's domestic ambitions of crowning his presidency with a military victory against a people which comprises only one of the hundred of its, Turkey's, population, which doesn't have an army as such, but armed citizens.

And Turkey is now seeking to suppress their gains from the Syrian administration for self-governance. Their sin is to self-govern themselves, which is a must in any modern society, across Europe, in the United States, even in the Middle East. So, now Kurds are being punished because they are becoming a bad example for the northern Kurds — that is, the Turkish citizens.

The outcome of this war, when looking at the balance of the weapons, the armament balance, Kurds may be in a bad position. But when looking at the matter from the legitimacy of the cause, it is obvious that Turkey has lost the war from the start. And not even an international organization, not a serious government across the globe is for Turkey's crackdown on Kurds in Syria. And all the peoples of the world are for the Kurds' right to determine their future. So, in the long term — maybe the Kurds, in the short term, may be inflicted casualties, but in the long term they are going to gain not only the hearts, but also the minds of the peoples of the world, because they present the only viable outcome of the Syrian war: a democratic country with self-governance for every entity in Syria.

And this will be understood, whatever the Turkish government's propaganda machine would say. They are called "terrorists." Imagine, in Turkey, there are at least 50,000 terrorists in prison. Everybody against Tayyip Erdoğan is a terrorist. Even the main opposition party is a terrorist party. But this party, tragically, said yes to a Turkish incursion into Syria. They are both crying for the losses but also supporting the war efforts of the Turkish government. It is just like the German parliament which started the First World War in 1914.

So, I would like to say that, even now, at the beginning of this Turkish incursion in the Kurdish-controlled areas, there will be no support, no empathy with the Turkish government for occupying this land. And if the international community understands, comes to the support of a nation which has the right to rule themselves, anywhere in the world, then the outcome of the war may change. All unjust wars have been lost by their perpetrators. And this is going to be lost also. But this is going to cost the Turkish people economic assets —

NERMEEN SHAIKH: I'd like to go — Ertuğrul, we'd like to go back for a second to Elif Sarican.

ERTUĞRUL KÜRKÇÜ: OK.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: If you could talk, Elif, about what you expect to happen now? How long do you expect this Turkish offensive to continue?

ELIF SARICAN: I mean, if Turkey gets its way, if the Turkish Army and Erdoğan gets its way, it will continue until they have genuinely achieved the genocide of the people of northern Syria, northeast Syria.

But, of course, a lot of this is dependent on the international community, as well, and actually even more importantly the international community. You know, we've seen that the public opinion is deeply and quite aggressively opposed to this invasion. We've seen a lot of people, you know, very, very close aides of Trump, come out very strongly to this, including the sanctions bill that has been put together. We've seen a lot of important academics, like David Harvey, pull out from conferences in Turkey, and celebrities, like Cher, who have come out with this.

So, this kind of solidarity and this kind of public outrage is genuinely important, because the lives of 5 million people are in question, including almost 3 million Kurds, but also not just Kurds, right? It's Arabs. It's Assyrians. It's Turkmen. It's a lot of other Christian groups. It's Yazidis. So there's many people, many marginalized — historically marginalized communities that are at risk here, because the Turkish Army just are not making distinctions. You know, yesterday, an Armenian village was also bombed, including other Christian neighborhoods, as well. So, this is an all-out war against the people of northern Syria. But as Debbie mentioned, as well, and Ertuğrul Kürkçü, this is against and aims to crush the beacon of hope that is the system based on direct democracy, ecology and women's liberation.

So, I think what's important is that people — you know, a lot of people want to do things, but they don't know exactly how to. It's important to encourage people to academically, culturally, touristically boycott Turkey at this point and make sure that if there is an international power or a state that is not willing to stop this Turkish invasion, that the people of the world, that we'll come together and make sure that they definitely pay for it.

AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank all our guests and also end with The Washington Post report. The Washington Post ran a piece earlier this week headlined "Trump's decision on Syria crystallizes questions about his business — and his presidency." The article notes Trump himself has acknowledged his conflict of interest with Turkey. Even after Trump became president, Trump Towers Istanbul remained part of the Trump Organization and continued to generate revenue for Trump himself.

We'll leave it there, Elif Sarican, Kurdish Women's Movement activist, speaking to us from London; Ertuğrul Kürkçü, honorary chair, pro-Kurdish Peoples' Democratic Party, speaking to us from Brussels, Belgium; and Debbie Bookchin, co-founder of the Emergency Committee for Rojava.

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