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THE ABSURD TIMES
Illustration: Carlos Latuff's view of Iraq Today.
John Kerry, the defender of freedom everywhere, made a
surprise visit to Egypt to talk to Sisi.
No details of the conversation were given, but after he left, the
Egyptian court sentenced 20 journalists to 7 to 10 years in prison. Only 3 were stupid enough to still be in the
country. Why do these journalists think
they are supposed to report anyway.
They talk a lot about freedom of the press, but do not realize that
"We report, you decide, and we tell you what to decide." This is the American tradition. Besides, everyone knows that Al-Jazeera is a
terrorist organization with "close ties" to the Bin Laden crowd. Why do you think the great patriot George
Bush had to bomb their headquarters in Iraq, anyway? Now Kerry has moved to Iraq to ensure freedom and the American
way.
After we supplied ISIS with weapons to overthrow the evil
Assad in Syria, financed by the Gulf States, these people invaded Iraq. Of course, we won't mention it on our
mainstream media, our corporate media, oh what the hell, what are you going to
do about it anyway, the Ba'ath party took over, more or less, and they have
pretty much sealed off the borders and encircled Baghdad. Karry will fix this by talking to the leader
we set up there, Maliki, and make him more inclusive. He will be effective, of course, as you can see how he
straightened things out in Egypt.
Remember Israel? Of
course you do. While all this diversion
has been going on, Israel has been continuing its systematic campaign of
slaughtering and displacing of the indigenous population, the
Palestinians. See, they signed a
"Peace Treaty," but then they get to interpret what it means and if
you don't like it, you are Anti-Semitic, you horrible people, you. Remember the Holocaust? Six million. Yeah, sure, there were between 28 and 30 million Russians killed
at the same time, but they were Russians.
No one ever knew that the Russians are the "Chosen People." Only the Jews are. So, what happens? The
Presbyterians go and divest their stock in companies that help Israel. Now, I'm not sure how investing in the stock
market and separation of church and state fits into all of this, but what the
hell -- we're talking God here, so shut up and listen, will ya? Remember, I talk and you decide (what I tell
you to decide). How else are we ever
going to have peace?
We have interviews on all three topics, below:
MONDAY, JUNE 23, 2014
"Journalism in Egypt is a Crime": Global Outcry After 3 Al Jazeera Reporters Sentenced to 7-10 Years
An Egyptian court has sentenced three Al
Jazeera journalists to between seven and 10 years in prison on terrorism
charges, including "spreading false news" in support of the Muslim
Brotherhood, deemed by the government a "terrorist group." Peter Greste,
Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed have been jailed since December in a case
that’s stoked international outrage. The sentence came down one day after U.S.
Secretary of State John Kerry visited Cairo to meet with Egypt’s new president,
the former army general Abdul Fattah el-Sisi. Amnesty International decried the
jail sentences as "a dark day for media freedom in Egypt," while Al
Jazeera said the verdict defied "logic, sense, and any semblance of
justice." We go to Cairo to speak with Mohamed Fahmy’s brother Adel Fahmy,
as well as Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous, who warns:
"What this ruling means is that in Egypt journalism is a crime."
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in
its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: An Egyptian court has sentenced three Al Jazeera
journalists to between seven and 10 years in prison. Peter Greste, Mohamed
Fahmy and Baher Mohamed were convicted on terrorism charges including
"spreading false news" in support of the Muslim Brotherhood, deemed
by the government a "terrorist group." The three have been jailed
since December in a case that’s stoked international outrage. The hashtag
#FreeAlJazeeraStaff is trending worldwide.
The sentence came down one day after U.S.
Secretary of State John Kerry met with Egypt’s new president, the army chief,
General Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. Peter Greste’s brother Mike Greste was in the
Egyptian courtroom when the sentence came down.
MIKE GRESTE: Wrong verdict. It’s—I don’t—I don’t know how the judge
came to that decision. I’d be very interested to hear his reasons for giving
that verdict. It doesn’t make any sense.
AMY GOODMAN: Amnesty International decried the jail sentences, saying
it was, quote, "a dark day for media freedom in Egypt." The
Australian foreign minister, Julie Bishop, also condemned the sentencing.
JULIE BISHOP: Peter Greste is a well-respected Australian journalist. He
was in Egypt to report on the political situation. He was not there to support
the Muslim Brotherhood. We respect the outcome of the recent elections in
Egypt, and we will now initiate contact at the highest levels in the new
Egyptian government to see whether we can gain some kind of intervention from
the new government and find out whether intervention is indeed possible at this
stage. I have spoken at length with Peter Greste’s parents. They are
considering their legal options, including appeal options. We do not know how
long an appeal process would take. But in the meantime, we will provide
whatever consular assistance we can to Mr. Greste and, of course, to his family.
We understand that
Egypt has been through some very difficult times and there has been a great
deal of turmoil in Egypt, but this kind of verdict does nothing to support
Egypt’s claim to be on a transition to democracy, and the Australian government
urges the new government of Egypt to reflect on what message is being sent to
the world about the situation in Egypt. Freedom and freedom of the press is
fundamental to a democracy. And we are deeply concerned that this verdict is
part of a broader attempt to muzzle the media freedom that upholds democracies
around the world.
AMY GOODMAN: Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop condemning Egypt
for sentencing three Al Jazeera journalists—Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and
Baher Mohamed—to between seven and 10 years in prison.
We go directly to
Cairo, Egypt, now, where we’re joined by Adel Fahmy. He’s the brother of
journalist Mohamed Fahmy, an Egyptian-Canadian journalist who was Al Jazeera’s
acting Cairo bureau chief at the time of his arrest. And we’re joined byDemocracy
Now! video stream by Democracy Now! correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous,
who was in the courtroom today, as well.
Adel Fahmy, can you
respond to the verdict of the court?
ADEL FAHMY: Yes. So, that was an absolute shock for all of us. We totally
expected the opposite. Leading up to this day, we had a politicians gave us
reason to be optimistic, or at least cautiously optimistic. And then, the
experience was extremely traumatic to all of us. I can’t even calm down my—I’m
still trying to calm down my parents. We have to—we have to start now of the
coming steps, but it’s very sad what the judicial system has given as a
verdict. It’s a disgrace, and it shows that the judicial system—
AMY GOODMAN: I think we just lost Adel. We will try to get him back.
Sharif, you were there with the families, with the packed courtroom. Tell us
what happened today.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Well, what this ruling means is that in Egypt journalism
is a crime. The court found these three journalists guilty, giving Mohamed
Fahmy and Peter Greste seven years in prison, and Baher Mohamed, as well, and
adding a three-year prison sentence onto Baher Mohamed for possessing an empty
shell casing of a bullet, which he said was a souvenir, and so he has 10 years
in prison.
It was a really
difficult time in the court today when the verdicts were read out. The family
members were weeping. Fellow colleagues, journalists, were weeping. Mohamed
Fahmy was pulled away, had to be hauled away by the police in the court, as he
was trying to shout to journalists and respond to this outrageous verdict.
Peter Greste said nothing; he simply held up a closed fist in the air. And
Baher Mohamed was shaking his head.
You know, this is—the
little margin of freedom of expression and freedom of the press, that has been
continually shrinking in Egypt, took a very heavy blow today. They are accused
of—the prosecution has accused these three journalists of tarnishing Egypt’s
image abroad by portraying false scenes, as Egypt undergoing a civil war, to
help a terrorist organization, which is the Muslim Brotherhood, which has been
designated that. And the prosecution, throughout the trial, did not show a
shred of evidence of anything that comes close to that. Some of the evidence it
showed even included stuff that had nothing to do at all with Egypt, including
footage from Peter Greste in Somalia and Kenya, you know, even shots of their
parents and so forth. And so, essentially, the court put journalism itself on
trial. Many of the journalists today could have faced these same charges,
because they did nothing more than do their jobs. And Peter Greste himself was
only in Egypt for a couple of weeks. And lawyers—defense lawyers throughout the
trial have asked the prosecution and the judge whether simply airing the views
of an opposing voice is a crime in Egypt, and this sentence has, you know, put
freedom of the press really a large step back in the country.
And if you also—part
of the prosecution’s case rested on this technical report by, you know, three
experts that went through all of the footage that was seized in the arrest of
these three journalists. And during the trial, these expert witnesses denied
they had any authority to judge whether these journalists endangered national
security, and that contradicted the initial claims made in—you know, to the
prosecutor on which the entire case rests. So it’s a very, very weak, weak
case. You know, the Amnesty International observer blasted this case and said
it will have a very negative effect on freedom of the press in Egypt.
AMY GOODMAN: This is Mohamed Fahmy, from the cage in the courtroom,
condemning the proceedings.
MOHAMED FAHMY: Today’s proceedings show that there is—it seems like all
the witnesses have some amnesia or something, Alzheimer’s. There is a lot of discrepancies
in the documents and what they are saying themselves. The prosecutor has a lot
to answer for, for allowing the four engineers from the Maspero state TV to
have exactly the same copy/paste testimony, that we have seen in our video.
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Mohamed Fahmy speaking from the cage. As the
sentence was read, Mohamed Fahmy also yelled out, "Where is John
Kerry?"—again, a reference to secretary of state’s surprise visit to Egypt
just the day before, just this weekend. Adel Fahmy is back with us. The
significance of Secretary of State Kerry talking about the renewal of all aid
to—military aid to Egypt, as your brother and the other journalists have been
convicted and sentenced to seven to 10 years in prison, Adel?
ADEL FAHMY: I think Egypt has to rethink how their [inaudible] in
different parts of the world. I think everyone now is going to lobby—different
governments are going to lobby together against this appalling verdict—and the
U.S., as well, I’m sure. I heard that Mr. Kerry discussed this mistrial with
President Sisi yesterday, but I don’t know how that—what resulted from that or
if there was time for any corrective action to be taken. But now I think this
case really requires a strong diplomatic intervention by all governments and to
make a firm stand against this ridiculous justice system in Egypt.
AMY GOODMAN: Adel, could you tell us about Mohamed? He—tell us how he
ended up in Egypt, his life as a journalist.
ADEL FAHMY: Yeah, Mohamed worked in several countries prior to
returning to Egypt. Of course, he lived in Canada for a big portion of his
life. Then he worked in Dubai for awhile with TV, in Al Hurra TV. Then he
went—he worked with the Red Cross in Lebanon. And then he also worked in the L.A. Times covering the Iraq War and worked with
the BBC and then CNN when the revolution was [inaudible] to
be in Egypt, January 25 revolution, 2011. And after CNN, he joined
Al Jazeera English only—and I emphasize on that—only since September 2013. So
he was just only three months in his job. And—but that’s another point that we
stressed in our defense, that, you know, he’s a professional journalist who was
only sent to his job for three months and was [inaudible] very objectively and
professionally. So—and he got arrested, of course, as you know, on December
29th.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, Sharif, it is not only these three journalists,
although they are in prison and, according to the court, will be for the next
seven to 10 years, but a whole group of other Al Jazeera reporters have been
sentenced to up to 10 years in
absentia.
SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: Right. The case named 20 defendants. There were five
students who were charged in the case, which, you know, seemingly had no
connection whatsoever to Al Jazeera. And the first time that the three
journalists—Mohamed Fahmy, Peter Greste and Baher Mohamed—ever saw them was in
the defendants’ cage. Four of those students were sentenced to seven years in
prison. One of them, Anas el-Beltagy, who’s actually the son of the Muslim
Brotherhood leader, Mohamed el-Beltagy, was acquitted. Then a further 11 people
were sentencedin absentia to
10 years in prison. Al Jazeera has said nine of the 20 named in the case have a
connection to the network. So there’s some people in the case that are—you
know, they’re not all journalists. But one of the people named met with Mohamed
Fahmy in the Marriott just for half an hour for tea. She’s a Dutch journalist,
and she found out that she was, you know, on the charge sheet and had to be—had
to hide in the Dutch Embassy and flee the country.
So, really just a
haphazard list of charges. The prosecution, again, really provided no evidence
that showed that these journalists had done anything other than very basic
journalism. The prosecutor accused Al Jazeera of, quote-unquote, "forming
a devilish pact," that Qatar formed a devilish pact to bring down
governments in Syria and Yemen and Egypt. And Mohamed Fahmy himself, in the
last court session before this verdict, held up George Bush’s autobiography, Decision Points, and said,
"To say that journalists can bring down a state like Iraq brings shame on
all the media martyrs that died covering that war," and Mohamed Fahmy
himself covered that war, and he said it was George Bush that destroyed Iraq,
not Al Jazeera.
So, this case is going
to have reverberations, I think, around the world. We saw a heavy diplomatic
presence in the courtroom today with ambassadors from Canada, from Australia,
from the Netherlands and from Latvia there. Both the Canadian and Australian
ambassadors said that none of the evidence provided in the trial—they didn’t
understand how the judge came to this verdict. So, we’ll have to see what
happens going forward. They do have the right to appeal, of course, in this
case. President Sisi does have the right to pardon them or provide amnesty.
But again, as you
mentioned, this came a day after John Kerry, the secretary of state,
visited—for the first time, a high-level meeting between secretary of state and
the newly inaugurated president—and he voiced what appeared to be strong U.S.
support for Egypt, for this new government, saying that, you know, the aid will
be brought back to its previous levels, that he was confident that 10 Apache
helicopters would be delivered to Egypt soon. So—and then, you know, the next
day we have this really abominable verdict come down. So, we’ll have to see
what—how the State Department responds after that.
AMY GOODMAN: I was watching Sue Turton, who is one of the Al Jazeera
reporters who’s been sentenced in
absentia. She was in the Al Jazeera studios in Doha earlier today, right
after the sentence, saying, while she was much more concerned about the jailed
journalists, of course, that this means, as journalists, it’s very difficult
for them to travel, because any countries that Egypt has agreements with could
have her extradited, or the other journalists convicted in absentia, because she has
been convicted in an Egyptian court. I also wanted to ask Adel Mohamed—rather,
Adel Fahmy, about his Mohamed’s condition. He had dislocated his shoulder?
ADEL FAHMY: Yeah, he sustained this injury shortly before he was
arrested back in December. And due to the negligence inside and the harsh
condition and denying him to get an early diagnosis and treatment, it
deteriorated substantially to become a permanent disability. So, as if this was
not punishment enough, we get the verdict today. He has—his right arm, and it
got reconfirmed with a recent second MRI last
Tuesday to confirm that he will never have 100 percent functionality of his
right arm again, [inaudible] of motion and considerable pain. So, even
[inaudible] intervention, which he was trying to do right away, after his
acquittal, can only be proved for things [inaudible].
AMY GOODMAN: And the significance of countries speaking out and the
kind of worldwide outrage that’s been expressed? Does it matter at all? We just
heard the foreign minister of Australia, Julie Bishop. What role has Canada
played in putting pressure on the Egyptian government? And what difference does
it make when people speak out around the world? Does it make any difference
for—for your brother Mohamed, for Peter, in prison?
ADEL FAHMY: Yes, it’s extremely important, in my opinion. The
governments have to step up now and express how appalled they are by this, and
Egypt will realize that they cannot defy the whole world. You know, this
is—it’s already been—I mean, they’re very grateful for the journalists
constantly covering this and keeping the story alive. And now it’s time for,
you know, the diplomats to start getting into this, as well, and pressure has
to continue.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you both for being with us.
ADEL FAHMY: This is the only way we can get results.
AMY GOODMAN: Adel Fahmy, of course, we’ll continue to cover the case of
Mohamed Fahmy, Baher Mohamed and Peter Greste in prison in Egypt, as well as
everything that’s happening there. Thanks so much to Democracy Now!’s Sharif Abdel
Kouddous, speaking to us from Cairo, Egypt.
When we come back,
we’ll go to where Secretary of State John Kerry went after his surprise visit to
Cairo, Egypt, and that’s to Iraq. We’ll be speaking with Patrick Cockburn. Stay
with us.
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MONDAY, JUNE 23, 2014
"Baghdad is a Frightened City": As ISIS Gains Ground, Iraqi Capital Gripped by Fear & Uncertainty
Secretary of State John Kerry made a surprise
trip to Baghdad today to meet with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. Ahead
of his arrival, Kerry signaled the Obama administration is prepared to drop
support for Maliki, calling for leadership "prepared to represent all of
Iraq." Kerry’s visit comes as Sunni militants with the Islamic State of
Iraq and Syria have captured more territory. Over the weekend, ISISmilitants
seized three border crossings with Syria and Jordan, as well as four nearby
towns. An Iraqi government airstrike, meanwhile, has reportedly killed at least
seven civilians and wounded 12 others in the ISIS-held Tikrit. Residents say army helicopters fired on
civilian cars lined up at a gas station. The Iraqi government is claiming it
only killed insurgents. We go now to Baghdad to speak with Patrick Cockburn,
Middle East correspondent for The Independent.
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in
its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry made a surprise trip to
Baghdad today to meet with Iraq’s prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki. Ahead of his
arrival, Kerry signaled the Obama administration is prepared to drop support
for Maliki, calling for leadership, quote, "prepared to represent all of
Iraq." Kerry’s visit to Baghdad comes as Sunni militants with the Islamic
State of Iraq in Syria, ISIS, have captured more territory. Over the weekend, ISIS militants seized three border
crossings with Syria and Jordan, as well as four nearby towns. An Iraqi
government airstrike, meanwhile, has reportedly killed at least seven civilians
and wounded 12 others in the ISIS-held Tikrit. Residents say army helicopters fired on
civilian cars lined up at a gas station. The Iraqi government is claiming it
only killed insurgents.
We go directly to Baghdad, where we’re joined
by Patrick Cockburn, Middle East correspondent for The Independent. One of his recent headlined articles is "In Baghdad, a City Gripped by
Fear, News is Priceless—But ISIS Is Winning
the Propaganda War."
Patrick, talk about what you’re experiencing
right now in Baghdad.
PATRICK COCKBURN: Well, Baghdad is a very frightened city. Nobody quite
knows what’s going to happen. You know, news keeps coming in of further gains
byISIS, or DAIISH, as it’s always called here. The whole of Anbar
province, this enormous province to the west, has fallen. And they’re only—ISIS
is only about an hour’s drive to the north. Of course, Baghdad is a big,
enormous city, six or seven million people. The majority are Shia. So people
say, "Well, they’ll never break through because of all these armed
Shia." But, you know, the fact remains that since the fall of Mosul, the
government hasn’t won any victories, and the—and ISIS has gone on taking more cities. You
see militiamen in the streets of Baghdad. Prices of everything have gone up. A
lot of people have got out of the city, big queues outside the passport office.
So there’s is an atmosphere of barely suppressed panic.
AMY GOODMAN: And the significance of Kerry being in Baghdad right now,
and what message he is sending to Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister?
PATRICK COCKBURN: Well, the message is clearly, you know: "Leave. Go.
We need a new prime minister, and we need a new political leadership." And
that will probably happen. The sense I get with all these diplomatic maneuvers,
with Kerry, with the Iranians, with the Iraqi government, are all in slow time,
but the advance ofISIS and the extreme Sunni Islamists, you
know, is much faster than that. They’re really dictating the pace. So, you
know, there’s no doubt that Maliki has been a disastrous prime minister. Nobody
else could have spent that amount of money and had that size an army and just
seen it dissolve. But to get somebody better and to get things up and running
is going to take time, and the time isn’t really there.
AMY GOODMAN: What is the message that Kerry is sending? I want to turn
to comments of the secretary of state. This is the secretary of state speaking
in Cairo a day before the big verdict came down today on the Al Jazeera
reporters who have now been convicted and sentenced to seven to 10 years in
prison. This is what he said in Cairo.
SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY: We will help Iraqis to complete this transition if they
choose it. If they want, they have an opportunity to choose leadership that can
represent all of Iraq, a unity government that brings people together and focus
on ISIL.
And I am convinced that they will do so, not just with our help, but with the
help of almost every country in the region, as well as others in the world who
will always stand up against the tyranny of this kind of terrorist activity.
AMY GOODMAN: So, the role of the United States in whether Maliki will
retain power, and also, Patrick Cockburn, the role of Iran?
PATRICK COCKBURN: Well, you know, listening to Kerry, I get the sort of
feeling that he hasn’t quite got a grip on the situation. I mean, the people
who have taken Mosul and taken most of northern and western Iraq really aren’t
interested in a unity government. What they’ve been doing is killing Shia in
large numbers. Shia villagers, just out of Kirkuk, were driven out of their
homes—I think it was yesterday—and machine-gunned. Twenty-one tribal chiefs
from the same area were reported executed. You know, that’s what ISIS, the
Islamic State, is all about.
So, you know, we
could—the idea is, you could have a government which will include Sunni and
Kurds, which we sort of have already in Baghdad, but this would be more
representative, and then the main leaders of the Sunni community, apart from ISISand some
of the Baathists, would so rally to the government. But it’s by no means clear
that would happen, because the situation has changed, because these towns are
now under the control of ISIS, and it will be very difficult to get them out. So, I
think there’s a certain amount of—quite a lot of wish fulfillment and fantasy
in what Kerry is saying.
You asked about Iran.
The Iranians, one, they want to protect this government. They want to protect
Baghdad. They want to—but at the same time, they don’t want to see a new
government installed, which, in their eyes, would see Maliki, who’s sort of
pro-Iranian or under Iranian influence, by a prime minister who’s under
American influence. You know, this has not been good news for the Iranians,
what has happened. The government that they supported, you know, is very
clearly a dysfunctional and disastrous government. So they’re arguing,
"Well, we’ll keep it in—the first thing is to deal with this attack from ISIS, and then
we’ll think about changing the government." But, of course, if that attack
is dealt with, the government won’t change. And if the government doesn’t
change, then it’s very unlikely there’s going to be much progress in the war.
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s turn to voices of Baghdad residents. Ahmed is
opposed to U.S. military intervention in Iraq.
AHMED: [translated] It cannot be solved through military
intervention. It has to be solved through diplomatic and political channels.
This is our message to Obama. We say to him that we do not want him to send
reinforcements or an aircraft carrier. This cannot help us. The situation in
Iraq is very critical, and it needs quick solutions.
QASSIM HASHIM: [translated] We hoped for such a stand. It is the American
forces’ duty to protect the Iraqi people and its institutions, as stipulated in
the Strategic Framework Agreement.
AMY GOODMAN: And I want to turn to comments made in protests in the
United States. There have been protests against any kind of U.S. intervention
in Iraq. This is antiwar protesters gathering outside the White House this
weekend. Mara Verheyden-Hilliard was one of them.
MARA VERHEYDEN-HILLIARD: We’re here today to stand in opposition to any new war in
Iraq. The U.S. government, the Obama administration, has said that they are
sending 300 advisers into Iraq. He said that he will consider bombing as he
determines whether there are appropriate targets. And the simple fact is, what
we’re seeing in Iraq today is purely the result of U.S. militarism and U.S.
intervention. This is a country that before the shock-and-awe invasion, the
people of Iraq were not divided along sectarian or religious lines.
AMY GOODMAN: Another group of protesters stood next to the antiwar
protesters holding Iraqi flags. Some of them called on U.S. President Obama to
intervene in the crisis unfolding in Iraq, like David Barrows. I thought we had
that clip, but let’s turn back to Patrick Cockburn, who is in Baghdad right
now, hearing these different voices both in Iraq and in the United States.
Patrick?
PATRICK COCKBURN: Yeah, I mean, I can see the arguments on both sides. But,
you know, there’s no question that ISIS is closing
in on Baghdad. But the people of Baghdad, who are mostly Shia, will fight,
because they think they’ll be massacred if they don’t. You know, who is
responsible for this? Well, you know, Maliki was put in, made prime minister by
the United States, by the American ambassador. Later, then Washington regarded
him as becoming—coming under the influence of Iran. So, in a way, it has been
the fact that Iraqi leaders have been determined by outside powers which has
led to the present disastrous situation. There simply haven’t been leaders here
who have sufficient support. And—
AMY GOODMAN: Patrick? We may have just lost Patrick Cockburn. We’ll go
to a break and see if we can get him back on. Patrick Cockburn is the Middle
East correspondent for The
Independent who’s been
reporting from Baghdad. One of his recent pieces is headlined, "In
Baghdad, a City Gripped by Fear, News is Priceless—But ISIS Is Winning the Propaganda War."
As we attempt to get him back on, we’re going to go to another clip. This is a
clip that is of David Barrows, a peace protester who was in the White
House—outside, this weekend.
DAVID BARROWS: Well, I’m here because I don’t want another war to start.
I don’t want bombing. I’m sick of these bombings. They do absolutely no good.
You know, we’re bombing in Yemen. We’re bombing all over the place. We’re
killing women and children and men who have nothing to do with war. It really
makes me sick. I mean, I was born in this country. I just wonder what’s going
on with the American people? Wake up, America! You’ve got to stop doing this
terrorism. That’s what we’re doing. We’re becoming a people of terrorism.
AMY GOODMAN: That was David Barrows, a peace protester outside the
White House this weekend. Let’s go to break and see if we can get Patrick
Cockburn back on. Sounds like we just got him. Patrick, we’ve been hearing
voices of people who are for and against U.S. intervention. Can you talk about
the military advisers, as President Obama is calling them, the 300 or so
advisers that are being sent to Iraq? Patrick, are you with us?
PATRICK COCKBURN: Yeah, I suppose that one of their main objectives would be
to find out what the real situation is on the ground. You know, for such an
enormous government with—well, you know, there’s meant to be 350,000 men in the
Iraqi army. They’ve spent $41-$42 billion in the last three years. But this
army seems to have disappeared, hasn’t really fought for the last two weeks. So
I guess they’ll want to find out why.
I think one must
understand there are limitations to what the United States can do here. A lot
of the debate in the U.S., looked at from abroad, seems to assume that the U.S.
has sort of powers to wholly change things on the ground here, which I
sincerely doubt. But, you know, so will they change anything? Well, they’ll
probably give some—a little bit more confidence to the Iraqi army. If there was
airstrikes, I suppose the Iraqi army would like it. But remember, you know,
that five or six years ago, there was enormous, enormous U.S. Army here, there
were plenty of airstrikes, and it really didn’t get anywhere. So, I wonder how
much effect it will really have now.
AMY GOODMAN: Patrick Cockburn, I want to thank you for being with us,
Middle East correspondent for The
Independent. We will link to your articles in The Independent at democracynow.org. We’ll go to break
now and hear about the decision of the Presbyterian Church to divest from three
companies doing business with Israel. Stay with us.
The
original content of this program is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative
Works 3.0 United States License. Please attribute legal copies of
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MONDAY, JUNE 23, 2014
Pressuring Israel, Presbyterian Church Divests from Firms Tied to Occupation of Palestinian Land
In what is being hailed as a major milestone
for the global campaign to boycott and divest from Israel over its treatment of
Palestinians, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted to divest from three
companies that it says supply Israel with equipment used in the occupation of
Palestinian territory. According to the church, the three firms — Motorola
Solutions, Caterpillar and Hewlett-Packard — profit from the Israeli occupation
of Palestinian land by selling bulldozers, surveillance technology and other
similar products. The decision passed by seven votes, 310 to 303, making the
Presbyterian Church the largest religious group to vote for divestment. We are
joined by two guests: Dr. Nahida Gordon, a Palestinian-American professor who
is a member of the steering committee of the Israel/Palestine Mission Network
in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.); and Rabbi Alissa Wise, director of
organizing at Jewish Voice for Peace.
Image Credit:
justforeignpolicy.org/images/presby-divest
TRANSCRIPT
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in
its final form.
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to a discussion on what’s being hailed as a
major milestone for the global campaign to boycott and divest from Israel over
its treatment of Palestinians. At its general convention in Detroit Friday, the
Presbyterian Church of the U.S. voted to divest from three companies that it
says supply Israel with equipment used in the occupation of Palestinian
territory. The companies are Motorola Solutions, Caterpillar and
Hewlett-Packard. The value of Presbyterian holdings in the companies is about
$21 million. According to the church, the companies profit from Israeli
occupation of Palestinian land by selling bulldozers, surveillance technology
and other similar products. The decision by the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to
divest passed by seven votes, 310 to 303, making it the largest religious group
to vote for divestment. Two years ago, the assembly rejected a similar
divestment proposal by two votes. The vote also supported interfaith cooperation,
the right of Israel to exist and a two-state solution.
To talk about the vote’s significance, we’re
joined by two guests. In Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. Nahida Gordon is with us,
professor emeritus—emerita at Case Western Reserve University. She’s a Palestinian
American who was born in Jerusalem before 1948. She’s a Presbyterian, a member
of the steering committee of the Israel/Palestine Mission Network in the
Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). In San Francisco, Rabbi Alissa Wise is with us,
director of organizing at Jewish Voice for Peace. Her group supported the
Presbyterian Church’s divestment decision.
We welcome you both to Democracy Now! I want to begin in Cleveland. Let’s
begin with Dr. Nahida Gordon. Explain what happened this time. What made this
vote different from the vote before, when this was defeated?
NAHIDA GORDON: I think, with time, more people in the Presbyterian
Church, particularly the commissioners who were on the floor of the General
Assembly, are beginning to know more of what is really going on in the West
Bank, in East Jerusalem and Gaza. Thanks to the news and news sources on the
Internet, they’re beginning to see more and more of what is going on in
Palestine and the terrible conditions under which the Palestinians are living.
And I think we built from the last General Assembly to this assembly, and so we
know more, we understand more. And we had some people on the floor who said
some wonderful things to explain what is going on. And we organized. We worked
very hard for this decision. And we succeeded, and we’re very gratified that we
succeeded.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the companies that the Presbyterian
Church will divest from?
NAHIDA GORDON: Yes. We feel that the church would be complicit in the
occupation if we remain divested in these three companies. Caterpillar, I don’t
know—most people have seen these very huge D9 bulldozers, which are
weaponized—they have machine guns on them, and I believe some of them are
electrified—destroy houses with just one simple swipe. We’ve seen them uproot
olive trees. On May 19th, they used bulldozers to destroy, we believe, between
1,500 and 2,000 fruit trees at the Tent of Nations farm. They build the roads
into the West Bank, which are for Israelis only. They have been used in
building the separation wall, which goes deep into the West Bank into
Palestinian territory. And they help build the settlements.
Now, Motorola
Solutions produces fuses for bombs that the Israelis use against the
Palestinians. As you well know, they bomb Gaza almost regularly. They also
produce surveillance equipment for illegal settlements. These are illegal under
international law, and they’re throughout the West Bank.
And Hewlett-Packard
produces biometric—amongst other things, produces biometric scanners, which the
Israelis use in checkpoints, which are throughout and inside the West Bank.
There are—a few of them are on the border between Israel and the West Bank, but
the majority, the large majority, are checkpoints within the West Bank.
AMY GOODMAN: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu criticized the
decision by the Presbyterian Church to divest from U.S. companies that operate
in the Israeli-occupied territories. He spoke on Meet the Press on Sunday.
PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: It should trouble all people of conscience and morality,
because it’s so disgraceful. You know, you look at what’s happening in the
Middle East—and I think most Americans understand this—they see this enormous
area riveted by religious hatred, by savagery of unimaginable proportions. Then
you come to Israel, and you see the one democracy that upholds basic human
rights, that guards the rights of all minorities, that protects Christians.
Christians are persecuted throughout the Middle East. So, most Americans
understand that Israel is a beacon of civilization and moderation.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re bringing in Rabbi Alissa Wise now, director of
organizing at Jewish Voice for Peace. Can you respond to Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu?
RABBI ALISSA WISE: Sure. Thank you for having me on this morning. You know,
I’m concerned about Prime Minister Netanyahu’s framing of, you know, what
Israel is, because, quite certainly, as Dr. Nahida Gordon just described, there
are really urgent and critical human rights issues that need to be addressed both
within the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, and also there’s a critical
issue around lack of basic equal rights for Palestinian citizens of Israel.
These are the reasons behind, you know, this Presbyterian call for divestment
and the reasons so many around the world are urging divestment as a way to
remedy the urgent human rights abuses going on on the ground.
AMY GOODMAN: And what is your role as a rabbi in arguing for this in
the Presbyterian Church?
RABBI ALISSA WISE: Well, I just spent the last week in Detroit at the
Presbyterian General Assembly. And part of my role was, you know, I was invited
there by the Israel/Palestine Mission Network and other friends within the
Presbyterian community to serve as a witness and a support to the Presbyterian
process. You know, there is—you know, as we like to say in the Jewish
community, "Ask two Jews a question, get three opinions." So, there’s
quite a bit of diversity within the Jewish community around these questions
around, you know, what to do about what is now a 47-year-old occupation, and
how do we—how do we stop these urgent human rights abuses against Palestinians.
So, in part, it is to be a strong interfaith partner and support to our friends
in the Presbyterian Church, which involves interfaith—strong interfaith
partnerships involve kind of staying at the table, even in moments of deep
disagreement.
And it is my sincere
hope that those in the Jewish community and other faith communities, who might
be—you know, disagree with this decision, will stay at the table and, not only
that, will actually dig deep to actually hear the message of their Presbyterian
brothers and sisters. And, you know, one of the things most frustrating that I
find from those others in the Jewish community that oppose the divestment bills
is that they have no real practical solution to what to do to end these human
rights abuses. You never get to hear their ideas about what will stop
settlement construction, what will stop the daily humiliation of Palestinians
at checkpoints, what will stop, you know, the bulldozing of olive trees and the
demolition of homes. That’s never the conversation at the table. And it’s my
sincerest hope that this action by the Presbyterians will push all of us to
kind of ask those critical questions.
AMY GOODMAN: I’d like to turn to comments made by the Rabbi Rick
Jacobs, the president of the Union for Reform Judaism. He was speaking to CNN in response to the vote.
RABBI RICK JACOBS: I represent the overwhelming majority of the American
Jewish community, literally millions, and we are all united. We’re not united
about everything, but on this, we are completely united, that this act of
divestment, which is—whatever the language says, it is an affirmation of the
global BDS,
the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement. The global BDS has already claimed this as a great
victory. This is a very hurtful act that causes the entire Jewish community not
only pain, but a sense of betrayal from the Presbyterian Church.
AMY GOODMAN: Rabbi Alissa Wise, your response?
RABBI ALISSA WISE: Yes, I actually did have the opportunity to speak with
Rabbi Jacobs myself when I was in Detroit briefly. We spoke about this very
issue. You know, I think that because of the intense muzzling that exists
within the Jewish community around these issues—there are severe restrictions
that we’ve seen in the past year through the Open Hillel movement, Jewish
students on college campus challenging what are truly McCarthyite restrictions
on the way that debate and dialogue can happen around Israel and on college
campuses—we actually don’t know exactly, you know, how many Jews are supportive
of these—this Israel right or wrong idea, or those that are really—want to
speak out for justice and feel kind of silenced by the policies of the Jewish
community.
Beyond that, I think
that, you know, Rabbi Jacobs at the Presbyterian General Assembly made a
last-ditch effort to strong-arm the Presbyterians to vote against divestment by
offering a last-minute meeting with Netanyahu, which, by all accounts, you
know, backfired, because it was seen as a manipulation. And it’s clear that,
you know, as I said before, there’s not consensus in the Jewish community on
any issue, most certainly on this issue. And I think it does a disservice to
the entire Jewish community and, most certainly, to our interfaith partners to
misrepresent that.
AMY GOODMAN: How many rabbis signed on to the open letter to the
Presbyterian Church, Rabbi Wise?
RABBI ALISSA WISE: You mean the open letter from Jewish Voice for Peace?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, the—
RABBI ALISSA WISE: Or the open letter from—
AMY GOODMAN: From Jewish Voice for Peace.
RABBI ALISSA WISE: I don’t know the exact number. The truth is that it’s not
a numbers game, right? Because of this, you know, there are many rabbis that
are supportive of these policies that simply cannot come out of the woodwork,
for fear of losing their jobs. Right? So I think that what’s most important is
that, you know, Jewish Voice for Peace is an organization that is small and
growing and being able to kind of create a space for those in the Jewish
community that wish to express these values of a hope for equality, justice and
self-determination for Palestinians to really come to light and to bear fruit.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Dr. Nahida Gordon, where does the Presbyterian
Church go from here?
NAHIDA GORDON: Well, technically, we will now not invest in these three
companies. And where we go from here? We need to continue to work for the human
rights of Palestinians. We are very much concerned with partners in Palestine,
as well as with Israel. What we would like to do—we’re not against the Israeli
people. What we would like to do is to see that the government of Israel starts
treating the Palestinians better. We would like to see the end of the
occupation. We’d like to see Palestinians have their human rights, have
freedom. Basically, that’s it. We need to see that the Palestinians have their
freedom.
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Nahida Gordon, I want to thank you very much for being
with us, professor emerita at Case Western Reserve University, a Palestinian
American born in Jerusalem before 1948, member of the steering committee of the
Israel/Palestine Mission Network in the Presbyterian Church. And thanks so much
to Rabbi Alissa Wise of Jewish Voice for Peace.
That does it for
today’s broadcast. Democracy
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The
original content of this program is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative
Works 3.0 United States License. Please attribute legal copies of
this work to democracynow.org.
Some of the work(s) that this program incorporates, however, may be separately
licensed. For further information or additional permissions, contact us.
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