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THE ABSURD TIMES
The dead guy
We assume "new details" will continue to "emerge," so perhaps it is time to discuss this and let it go.
First, let's learn how to pronounce this man's name: Ka shoeg [alternatively "showg") she. Networks, even in the U.S. have begun to get it relatively correct. A major problem is caused by the transliteration which is strange and mysterious at the very least and has never been explained to our satisfaction, although not through lack of interest on our parts. Similar problems exist in The Cyrillic and Greek alphabets, but this is beyond anything like that.
The Prince, who runs things over there in Mohammed Bin Salamon, which people have taken to calling MBS for good reason. So now, what happened?
Kashoggi (see what I mean?) was a columnist for the Washington Post. He also seemed to be somewhat of a patriot and supported MSB in many things, including giving women the right to drive. He seems to have written some things a bit too critical and, thus, he had to go. He fled here in order to escape death. He also wanted to marry a Turkish citizen. In fact, that may have been his ultimate crime.
At any rate, he asked for the paperwork and the consulate in Washington, and they told him he would have to go to Turkey to get the papers. He seemed to find this reasonable, although going along with it casts some doubts on his credulity. At any rate, after he eventually entered the building in Turkey, he never left alive. His fiancé waited outside and was given the name of two people to call if he never got out, and she called them.
Just before he entered, 15 killers had arrived at the consulate. Various accounts exist to explain the existence of the recordings to what happened to him while he was there, accounts including that he had an Apple watch to and then including that the Turks had the place bugged. Whether or not there were cameras tucked away is still unexplained, but the Turks claim they have both audio and visual proof.
According to accounts, the proceedings were quite vicious and cruel. The regular functionnaire at the place did say "if you are going to do that, do it somewhere else. I could get into trouble."
He was told it was best for him if he kept his mouth shut if he ever wanted to survive in Arabia.
Accounts relayed to sources say that the killings were "brutal" and shook him, and this person was a veteran of torture sessions. We do know that the journalist was strapped down on a table, injected with some sort of liquid, his fingernails and then fingers were separated for his body all the while he was screaming. One of them, a forensic doctor, had a bone saw and he was cut up into pieces and, presumably, the pieces placed in bags. The "blood curdling screams" lasted about seven minutes. The bags were then disposed of somehow and the 15 returned by plane to Saudi Arabia without hours the same days. In face, the fifteen were there only for a few hours.
Donald Trump explained the situation as caused by "rogue elements", although 15 well-coordinated rouges seem a bit convenient. More and more explanations are developing. Our Secretary of State visited with MBS and suggested we give them a few more days to investigate.
Meanwhile, the Turks did manage to gain access to the place after about two weeks and report smells of cleaning fluid and repainting. They were not allowed to visit the residence.
Kashoggi's last column was printed just hours ago, and it warns about suppression of the press and suggests that some sort of Radio Free Europe is needed for the entire Arab world. He limits this to since the quickly aborted "Arab Spring", although we know that the process continues under every despotic regime in the world and to some extent even here, although the suppression here is done more though economic means.
Everyone not in Trump's world remembers Jefferson's words to the effect that if he needed to choose between a free press or a safe government, he would favor the press. The press is unpopular everywhere. We can remember Russia Nobel prize winners defecting here and being criticized, but mainly their comments went unheeded. One of them pointed out that in "The Soviet Union" he works were sought out and devoured. Here, there was so much junk and clutter that whatever he had to say went virtually unnoticed unless some government figure sought to criticize him with taunts such as "If you don't like it here, why don't you go back to wherever?" Strange how many Americans were given the same treatment and still are.
At any rate, that's that.
It may be worthwhile to point out that the penalty for murder in Saudi Arabia is death in public by sword, sometimes followed by crucifixion. Death is also the penalty for espionage, homosexuality, and atheism (which makes any 19th century German philosophic discussions rather risky.
We could go on, but we seem to have already done so. Here is documentation as we know it:
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New details have emerged in the disappearance and probable death of Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who was reportedly still alive when his body was dismembered inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul more than two weeks ago. A Turkish source says it took Khashoggi seven minutes to die. The New York Times reports four of the 15 Saudi men implicated in the killing are directly linked to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's security detail. We speak with Jamal Elshayyal, an international award-winning senior correspondent for Al Jazeera. He wrote a piece for the Middle East Eye last year titled "The rise of Mohammed bin Salman: Alarm bells should be ringing."
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: More details have emerged about the disappearance and probable murder of Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, who has not been seen since he entered the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on October 2nd. The Middle East Eye is reporting Khashoggi was killed soon after he entered the consulate. The Turkish government reportedly has audio recordings showing that he was dragged screaming from the consul general's office, forced onto a table in a neighboring room and injected with an unknown substance. Khashoggi was reportedly then dismembered by a Saudi forensic doctor and autopsy expert, who allegedly listened to music on headphones as he used a bone saw to cut a still-breathing Khashoggi into pieces. It reportedly took Khashoggi seven minutes to die.
Meanwhile, more information has come to light about the Saudis suspected of being involved in his killing. According to Turkish officials, 15 Saudis flew into Istanbul shortly before Khashoggi entered the consulate. They then left the country just hours later. The New York Times reports four of the Saudi men are linked to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's security detail. One of the men, Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb, has traveled frequently with the crown prince, including on his recent trip to the United States. According to The Washington Post, several other of the Saudi suspects have ties to the Saudi security services.
AMY GOODMAN: The reporting directly contradicts President Trump's claim that, quote, "rogue elements" might be to blame for The Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance. On Tuesday, Trump refused to criticize Saudi Arabia over Khashoggi's disappearance and probable murder. He told the Associated Press, "Here we go again with, you know, you're guilty until proven innocent. I don't like that. We just went through that with Justice Kavanaugh. And he was innocent all the way as far as I'm concerned."
Trump's comment came as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo traveled to Saudi Arabia Tuesday to meet with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He said the Saudi leadership strongly denies any knowledge of what took place in their consulate in Istanbul.
SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO: They told me they were going to conduct a thorough, complete, transparent investigation. They made a commitment to, to hold anyone connected to any wrongdoing that may be found accountable for that, whether they are a senior officer or official. They promised accountability.
AMY GOODMAN: Pompeo met with both the Saudi king and the crown prince. He then traveled to Turkey to meet with the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
Well, we go now to Turkey, to Istanbul, just outside the Saudi Consulate, where we're joined by Jamal Elshayyal. He's an international award-winning senior correspondent for Al Jazeera. He has been outside that consulate for days.
For people who are not familiar with this story, since you have been reporting on this now since almost the beginning—it was October 2nd that Jamal Khashoggi walked into that consulate, where you are standing now, and has not been seen again—tell us what you know at this point, right through to yesterday, when you were snapping photographs of a cleaning crew going in with bleach before the Turkish authorities went in to investigate.
JAMAL ELSHAYYAL: Well, Amy, it has been a very bizarre, but also obviously sobering, story to cover. I mean, you're talking about a journalist who entered a consulate in order to process some paperwork to get married, essentially, to start a new chapter in his life, but never to come out again. Initially, Jamal Khashoggi, as you mentioned, entered on the Tuesday over two weeks ago for a couple of hours. His fiancée waited for him outside. He never came out. She then asked for the security guards at the door of the consulate to inform her where he was, to which they responded saying that he wasn't actually inside and that, they claimed, he left 20 minutes after entering—obviously, a claim that was never substantiated by any sort of evidence.
The first bizarre thing to come out from the Saudi authorities was they claimed that this seven-story building behind me, that has dozens and dozens of CCTV cameras installed around it, wasn't recording on that day, which cast a lot of doubt as to what exactly happened. A few days after Jamal Khashoggi went missing, the Turkish authorities released their CCTV footage of their cameras that are positioned outside the door of the consulate, which clearly established that Jamal had entered, putting the onus of responsibility on the Saudis to then prove that he exited. They failed to do that.
After that, we started getting some leaks and information from sources close to the investigation who were speaking on condition of anonymity, and they established to us on Saturday evening—so roughly about four days after Jamal entered—that he had indeed been killed, assassinated, murdered inside. They then released footage of a 15-man hit squad that, as you mentioned, flew in earlier on that day. And it included members of Saudi—the security personnel of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, members of the special forces of Saudi Arabia. And most importantly, it included one of the kingdom's top forensic experts, a man who prides himself in his career as being one of the top autopsy experts in Saudi Arabia. They flew in that morning, as you mentioned, on several flights, and they all flew out, bar two of them, on private jets that are linked to or are owned by a company linked to—also directly to Mohammed bin Salman and the Saudi Royal Court.
Since then, the evidence that the Turkish authorities have has been shared with the U.S. intelligence community. It seems that the Turks, diplomatically speaking, have been trying to walk a tightrope. They were looking to get some sort of support from their allies in NATO, as well as the Europeans. There was, interestingly enough, comments that were made by the U.S. intelligence community to several American outlets where they described the evidence that they were shown by the Turks as truly shocking. Now, for them to describe it—considering that they are the intelligence community that were behind things like Abu Ghraib prison, as well as Guantánamo and other hugely distasteful, let's say, or outrageous incidents, it goes a long way to show just how gruesome the details of those recordings are, if the U.S. intelligence community is saying it was shocked by what they saw.
The problem about this case, or maybe what is making it so significant, is it's not just a case about a journalist who entered and was murdered. There is so much more at stake—geopolitics, diplomacy, the future of Saudi Arabia and, dare I say, the future of the Middle East—because, up until now, people were looking at Saudi Arabia's future under Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He, through his very aggressive foreign policy in Yemen, in Egypt, in Libya and so forth, allied with the crown prince of Abu Dhabi, Mohammed bin Zayed, have been dictating how things are moving in the Arab world.
If indeed the Turks are able to prove beyond doubt that he is the one, as they say, who ordered the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi, if indeed the international community is to step up and maybe respond as it should to a crime of this magnitude, one that essentially ignores the Vienna Convention in terms of what diplomatic missions should be used for, one that targets journalists, one that essentially demembered—dismembered, rather, somebody while he was allegedly still alive, then that could very well see at least Mohammed bin Salman's influence not necessarily vanish, but at least clipped to an extent.
And I think, in that, considering the huge amount of investments that the Trump administration has made in Mohammed bin Salman and the links it has, that is what's maybe making things take a lot longer than they should in terms of wrapping up this criminal investigation and establishing what sorts of retribution should be placed on the criminals behind it.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Jamal, I wanted to ask you specifically about the Turkish government's release of information. It's been coming out sort of in drips and drabs over the period since Khashoggi entered the consulate. I wanted to ask you, first, why they took so long to actually go in and investigate, since they knew early on, apparently, that a crime had been committed. And what do you think is behind the partial releases of information over this period of time?
JAMAL ELSHAYYAL: I think Turkey's foreign policy establishment is under a lot of stress. It has been before this. When you look at the war in Syria, when you look at the GCC crisis, when you look at the Kurdish separatists and many, many other issues—the EU Essay and all of that—I think they are not happy that this has landed on them. And they've suddenly found that they are currently now being dragged into a confrontation with Saudi Arabia, which although on paper is an ally, they don't really see eye to eye on several issues.
In the beginning, it seemed that the Turks were trying to exhaust diplomatic corridors between them and—or, avenues, rather, between them and Riyadh, by trying to maybe get the Saudis to own up to what happened, and therefore it wouldn't be seen so confrontational. When that didn't happen, they started leaking bits here and there to try and maybe garner support from other countries, like the United States, like Britain and Germany and France, in order so that it doesn't be—so it's not framed as a Turkish-Saudi spat, but more so an international outrage at what Saudi Arabia have done.
More interestingly, I think, the latest two leaks that we were able to get, or the latest two bits of information we were able to get from the Attorney General's Office the night that his team entered the consulate behind me, and then, later, the details or the gruesome details of how Jamal Khashoggi was indeed murdered—I think the timing is very important. They came right after Trump initially tried to float the idea that this was rogue elements that were behind this. And therefore I think the Turks wanted to dismiss that completely by showing, "Well, how can it be a rogue element if indeed it took place in a consulate—that is, a diplomatic mission—under the direct order or control of the government?"
And secondly, the details of this taking place was done when Trump tried to maybe float the idea that this was somehow a rogue operation, an interrogation that went wrong. The fact that you would send your head autopsy expert, the fact that Jamal Khashoggi was barely questioned, if at all questioned, and was in fact descended upon by these special forces officers and beaten and killed in the way he was would cast a lot of doubt on the idea that it was simply an attempt to interrogate or question him and that people didn't really listen to the orders that they were given.
Obviously, the Turks themselves have a lot at stake here, not just in the sense that they don't want to cause this rift or fallout. The Turkish economy has been suffering quite a bit recently. They've been trying to maybe make amends of Ankara's relationship with Washington, and we've seen that in recent days with the comments coming out of the Trump administration following the release of the pastor. So, like I say, this is a case that's got to do much more with geopolitics and the interests of power groups than it is about, unfortunately, just the case of freedom of expression and a journalist who has been assassinated.
AMY GOODMAN: You are friends with Jamal Khashoggi's brother. Is that right? You just saw him? Can you talk about how his family is responding right now, what they're demanding? You have President Trump, it seems, even before the Saudi regime has publicly floated that there were rogue elements who did this, though they did this—it hasn't been explained how they did this in the Saudi Consulate or the Saudi consul general's residence—you have Trump himself saying this was rogue elements possibly.
And you have Pompeo, who's now gone to Turkey, where you are, but going to Saudi Arabia yesterday. Many questioned: Why wouldn't they be calling in the Saudi ambassador in Washington? Why would he be going directly to Riyadh and taking smiling pictures with both the king as well as the crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman? How is the family responding to all of this? And explain who—just who Jamal Khashoggi is and was. This is not a dissident within the Saudi regime.
JAMAL ELSHAYYAL: Let me just correct you there, Amy. I am not friends with his brother. Jamal Khashoggi—may he rest in peace—was very good friends with my brother. I had met Jamal on several occasions as a journalist in different conferences and conventions and symposiums, but I do not know Jamal Khashoggi's brother. It is my brother who was very good friends with Jamal, and they worked together extensively, and I had met Jamal, as I mentioned, on different occasions.
I am aware that one of Jamal's sons is currently actually in the United States. I'm also aware that one of his other sons has been under, essentially, house arrest in Saudi Arabia for many months and that the Saudi authorities put a travel ban on him in a way to try and force Jamal to come back. It does seem that there is a lot of pressure that has been put on his family. One of his sons in the United States recently created a Twitter account, which he released through it a statement where he's demanding full transparency as to what happened to his father.
You can only imagine, obviously, in a situation like this, what kind of toll it could take. I mean, not only do you suffer the loss, but you're suffering the everyday agony of not knowing or not having closure, not being able to bury, not being able to pay respects or to pray, from a religious perspective, and to ensure that that person is resting in peace. So, obviously, that would have a lot of stress. And it goes to show, and it speaks volumes, that the Saudi authorities would maintain a travel ban on his son. It speaks volumes that one of his other children is too scared to go back home or to travel and is in the United States.
And that would give you an idea of the contempt, maybe, that some believe the Saudi authorities have to anybody who is—as you mentioned, Jamal wasn't an opposition figure. He wasn't somebody who was calling for the downfall of the monarchy. He never once spoke of regime change. All of his writings were about reform. In fact, he was somebody who was very close to the Royal Court. He worked very closely with the former Saudi ambassador to the United States, previously the former ambassador to London and previously one of the head of intelligence for the kingdom.
He was just an independent mind, so he had an idea on what he saw with the aggressive rise of Mohammed bin Salman, the aggressive policies of Mohammed bin Salman, and the apparent hypocrisy of the international community to buy into this concept that Mohammed bin Salman was a reformer, when, in fact, female activists who had been calling for equality were being arrested whilst the world was applauding him for somehow allowing women to drive as being some sort of emancipation of women, as some of the U.S. media were calling it. It was those things that maybe put him on the radar.
And it seems that going after him shows that the Saudi regime and the Saudi current system under the rulership of Mohammed bin Salman is not even willing to have critical voices or even independent voices from within, let alone opposition voices. So, if you are to consider that there are some genuine opposition activists that are in the United Kingdom, in the United States, in Australia and other countries, imagine what kind of fate could befall them.
And the fact that, as you mentioned, you have these pictures of Mike Pompeo smiling and laughing with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, knowing full well that the U.S. intelligence community is very much aware of the details that the Turkish intelligence agencies have—and I can—I know this based on my sources, that they did share the information with them, making it very clear the link between the crown prince and what happened. So, for the secretary of state to then go and do that, obviously, will not send confidence to the pro-democracy movements or the independent journalists or the women activists in the kingdom or in the region.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Jamal, one of the things that you—you've raised the issue of the very good press that Mohammed bin Salman has gotten now for months in the—especially in the American media, and you've raised the issue that part of that has been, conceivably, the closer relationship that has developed between Saudi Arabia under the crown prince and Israel. Could you talk about that and the information that you've received previously about that?
JAMAL ELSHAYYAL: Well, I mean, it's no secret that for several years there has been an attempt to normalize a relationship between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Mohammed bin Salman belongs to a political school of thought that is juxtaposed to that which erupted in 2011 calling for freedom and democracy in the Arab world, which was then called the Arab Spring. It was more of, I would say, a protest movement, an intifada. It never really blossomed for those who were looking for some sort of freedom.
And in that school of thought, it is one that is allied with ensuring anything must be done to maintain a status quo, a status quo which is that it is the few that rule the many, it is the wealth of the many that is in the pockets of the few, and it is in the interest of "stability" that you have to ensure that these absolute monarchies or the autocratic military regimes, like in Egypt or Syria and so forth, remain.
It would seem, from political scientists and commentators, that Israel's existence as a superpower within that region—so, in order to maintain its upper-hand existence, it requires that those dictatorships or those absolute monarchies are also there, because what we saw, for example—and I covered Cairo—from January 26th, 2011, I was on the ground in Egypt, up until the end of that uprising, and then I covered in Libya and Yemen and Syria. And I was on the ground in all of these countries. And I can tell you, whenever there were these main protests, particularly on the Fridays, because that was the weekend, you would see hand in hand with the flag of that country—so with the Egyptian flag, you would see a Palestinian flag, as well. And you would see that in Benghazi. You would see that in Tripoli. And you would see that in Sana'a and in Aden and other places around.
And it became very apparent that the Arab people believe that the reason why Palestinian land continues to be occupied is because the dictatorships that exist are more concerned with putting their efforts in quashing dissent and ensuring that they continue to rule than they are to liberate those lands. And maybe that would explain why Mohammed bin Salman is seen to cozy up a lot more to Israel than he is to the pro-democratic movements in the Arab world. We've already seen, for example, over the past year and a bit, Saudi airspace being opened up to flights to Israel, something that had never been done before. We've seen Saudi officials meeting with Israeli officials in different countries. There were even reports that there were senior Saudi officials who flew to Israel and met with officials there.
But, I mean, you can divide it very simply as those camps that are looking for freedom and democracy, on the one hand—who may not necessarily have an issue with Israel as Israel, but they have an issue with occupation, they have an issue with inequality, they have an issue with lack of freedom—and you have another camp which wants to maintain that status quo, and therefore anybody who even rocks the boat, be it a journalist, be it an activist, be it a reformer, be it an independent voice like Jamal Khashoggi, is suddenly seen as an existential threat. And, unfortunately, without the checks and balances of international law, without any form of retribution, then they are given a green light to do what they wish, when they wish, to whomsoever they wish.
AMY GOODMAN: Jamal, just before you go, I wanted to go back to the scene where you're at right now, standing just outside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul where Jamal Khashoggi was just seen October 2nd—last seen. Just before Turkish investigators were allowed into Saudi Arabia's Consulate yesterday to carry out an inspection and search for evidence in the disappearance of Khashoggi, cameras captured a team—and you tweeted out photos of this—armed with mops, trash bags, bleach, entering the building. You wrote in your tweet, "You couldn't make this up!!! Literally minutes after #Saudi authorities said Turkish investigators could enter the consulate–a cleaning team arrived and entered the building!!!" As we wrap up, explain the significance of this, as President Trump says that the Saudi regime is conducting a thorough investigation.
JAMAL ELSHAYYAL: I think the way in which this operation happened, happened, and it is very much reflective of the policies we've seen of Mohammed bin Salman so far. It is, essentially—excuse me to put it in this way—but it's a big two fingers up to the world: "We can do whatever we want, and nobody's going to do anything about it." We saw that in the war in Yemen. We see it every day when you're bombing school buses and children and nothing happens. We saw that on the blockade on Qatar. We saw that with the abduction of a prime minister, the Lebanese prime minister, who was literally kidnapped. And nothing happened.
So, as far as the Saudis are concerned, in the beginning, they thought, "You know what? We're going to get away with it." When the Turks maybe put a bit of effort or pressure on them, and they said, "OK, we'll allow the investigators to come," before the investigators, in front of the world, they were like, "OK, we're going to clean up what we can clean up." I mean, obviously, in the end of the day, people will say, "Well, you know, you can't really clean it up all. Why would you do that after so many days?" and so forth. But it's about the message, that you can reach any opponent or critical voice in any country whenever you want, and nobody's going to punish the regime for it, and even if they do catch the regime, they can do what they want as a result.
I mean, you would think that an active crime scene, even people walking into it—forget about cleaners–that, in itself, would be something that was prohibited. But the fact that that was allowed to happen in front of the cameras speaks more to the brazen nature, the shameless nature of the regime, which has been given a green light and enabled—not just by the Trump Administration, by the way, but by the entire free world, and for many decades, not just now. And therefore, that's what's happened.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jamal Elshayyal, we want to thank you so much for being with us, international award-winning senior correspondent for Al Jazeera, currently reporting outside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. Last year, Jamal wrote a piece for the Middle East Eye headlined "The rise of Mohammed bin Salman: Alarm bells should be ringing."
When we come back, we continue with the latest on Khashoggi's disappearance and probable murder with Sarah Aziza, an investigative reporter who spent the summer in Saudi Arabia. Stay with us.
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As international outcry grows louder amid new revelations about the shocking death of Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi, we speak with investigative journalist Sarah Aziza about Saudi Arabia's long history of targeting dissidents. Just weeks before the ban was lifted on women driving in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi government arrested several of the country's most prominent feminist activists, including women who had been campaigning for decades for the right to drive. Sarah Aziza has been reporting from Saudi Arabia with the Pulitzer Center for Crisis Reporting. Her latest piece for The Intercept is headlined "Jamal Khashoggi Wasn't the First—Saudi Arabia Has Been Going After Dissidents Abroad for Decades."
Transcript
This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We continue our discussion on Jamal Khashoggi as gruesome new details emerge in the disappearance and probable death of the Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist. He was reportedly still alive when his body was dismembered inside the consulate in Istanbul more than two weeks ago. A Turkish source says it took him seven minutes to die. The New York Times reports four of the 15 Saudi men implicated in the killing are directly linked to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's security detail.
AMY GOODMAN: For more, we're joined here in New York by Sarah Aziza, investigative reporter who's been reporting from Saudi Arabia with the Pulitzer Center for Crisis Reporting, her latest piece for The Interceptheadlined "Jamal Khashoggi Wasn't the First—Saudi Arabia Has Been Going After Dissidents Abroad for Decades."
It's great to have you with us, Sarah.
SARAH AZIZA: Thank you for having me.
AMY GOODMAN: We were just speaking with Jamal Elshayyal. If you can add to what he was saying, what you think it's important for people to understand at this point? Many wondering why President Trump is doing PR work for the Saudi regime, even before they say publicly—he says maybe it's "rogue elements," when we're talking about an official government building in Saudi Arabia—I mean, in Turkey, the Saudi Consulate, Khashoggi disappearing there October 2nd, with his fiancée standing outside for hours waiting for him to come out, and he never did. First, Saudi Arabia said he did walk out, and now it's been two weeks, and they've had to change their story.
SARAH AZIZA: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think, in many ways, while this story is incredibly shocking in its details, it's really just a difference in degree rather than kind, as far as what we've seen Saudi Arabia capable of doing over the years, and particularly under this crown prince. So, as the reporter pointed out, many activists and journalists have found themselves silenced in one way or another or placed under pressure even while abroad. And the latest developments with Khashoggi's case have only further reinforced the feeling that many activists and writers and students and any everyday Saudi who may be abroad feels. They're never quite beyond the reach of the Saudi government. And as your previous guest just mentioned, Jamal was not even a dissident. He was very clear on that while he was alive. He was a reformer. For a long time, he was a loyalist. And it was only in very recent—
AMY GOODMAN: And got criticized by many dissidents.
SARAH AZIZA: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, for not going far enough. He wanted to even believe that Mohammed bin Salman could deliver on some of his promises early on, but it was only when he saw the crown prince taking actions that directly contradicted all the promises of reform and liberalization that he felt the need to step out. So, yeah, we've seen all of this before, in a sense.
I've spoken to many Saudis who have spent years abroad, who, maybe like Jamal Khashoggi, put themselves in self-imposed exile because they felt it was no longer safe for them to be speaking out or writing freely within the kingdom. But then, as some of Jamal Khashoggi's own family experienced, some of their family might have been placed under house arrest, under travel bans, threatened or harassed by the government. So, none of this—in many ways, this is not a departure for Saudi Arabia.
And in the same way—you mentioned Trump's response—unfortunately, we've seen him very, very willing to be flexible on the truth, to change his story, to really not honestly be apparently looking for the truth, but looking for a story that fits as a justification for what he wants to do.
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, there's been a lot of attention, obviously, in the world press to the right of women to be able to drive in Saudi Arabia under the Crown Prince bin Salman. But what is the actual situation for dissident women in Saudi Arabia today?
SARAH AZIZA: Thank you for asking about that. That's something I think that we—those of us who were following this story this summer were really confounded at the world's lack of response when Mohammed bin Salman made a lot of pomp and circumstance about finally giving women the right to drive. Up until this past year, women in Saudi Arabia were the only women on the planet who didn't have that right.
So it was very symbolic, and it was a meaningful change for many women, but the world was willing to ignore the fact that at the same time Mohammed bin Salman was jailing the very women who had worked for years or decades calling for the right to drive, among other human rights and rights for women.
Loujain al-Hathloul, Aziza al-Yousef, among many others, Hatoon al-Fassi, some of the most prominent women activists—some of them had been working since the '70s for equality—were jailed without any real public charges, or, in the case of Loujain al-Hathloul, government-propagated rumors that they were foreign agents, agents of Qatar. And—
AMY GOODMAN: And explain.
SARAH AZIZA: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: You wrote this brilliant piece over the summer about when the decision came down, what they had been fighting for, for years, sometimes getting behind the wheel, being arrested. When the decision came down, they got calls—like Loujain al-Hathloul—not to speak or to tweet about this.
SARAH AZIZA: Absolutely. Yeah, let's talk about Loujain for a second. So, Loujain was a prominent women's rights activist, and she was in Riyadh when this announcement came from Mohammed bin—or, from King Salman, but as part of Mohammed bin Salman's grand agenda. She was in Riyadh only because she had been abducted from the UAE a few months before. She was studying for her master's in the UAE and was arrested, forced to return to Saudi Arabia, placed under a travel ban, not allowed to leave the country again, and then, a few months later, was arrested.
But before that, when she was sitting at home watching the announcement come down about women driving, she knew about that from a few days prior, when the Royal Court called her personally and told her to remain silent, to not speak publicly, even in praise of the new lifting of the ban, as a way of controlling the narrative that tightly. That's one of the many instances where we saw how MBS, the crown prince, is so really obsessed with controlling the narrative from the right and the left.
AMY GOODMAN: Even in praise.
SARAH AZIZA: Yeah, even in praise. He didn't want to appear to be giving something to activists, responding to activists.
AMY GOODMAN: So, what happened, ultimately, very quickly? She tweeted—
SARAH AZIZA: Yeah, she eventually tweeted, "Al-Hamduililah," which means "Thank God"—that's it—and got a—
AMY GOODMAN: That one word, "Hamduililah."
SARAH AZIZA:* Yeah, "Thank God" for, you know, the right to drive, and very quickly was sent a message from someone from the Royal Court saying, "We told you not to speak, and if you know what's good for you, basically, you'll shut up."
AMY GOODMAN: Next week, another woman activist, Israa al-Ghomgham, faces a trial and death.
SARAH AZIZA:* Yeah. There are several people going on trial in Saudi Arabia next week, including Israa, who may face the death penalty. The prosecutors are asking for the death penalty. There's likely to be appeals—
JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And the charges against her?
SARAH AZIZA:* Basically, undermining the state. She has a connection with minority groups and activists in the kingdom. And the Saudi government, especially under MBS, has been expanding its definition of terrorism. It's cracked down on cybersecurity laws, using the phrase "fake news." Spreading fake news or defamation against the royal family is incurring higher and higher penalties, including imprisonment and fines. So, it really doesn't take anything substantial to be jailed or silenced by or imprisoned by the government. Hundreds have been jailed under MBS, including in the last year, 15 journalists just in the kingdom alone.
So, this is, again, something that MBS has been showing us—his intent and his willingness to trample on human rights and to be completely intolerant of free speech among his own citizens. So, while the case of Jamal is grisly and bizarre and shocking, it's, again, not a departure from what we've seen from MBS and from prior Saudi rulers.
AMY GOODMAN: Of course, not to mention what's happening in Yemen every single day—
SARAH AZIZA: Absolutely.
AMY GOODMAN: —the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, backed by the United States, the Saudi-UAE coalition's constant bombing of this country.
SARAH AZIZA:* Yeah, yeah. And I might add, I've spoken to—I have many contacts within Saudi Arabia and among the Saudi diaspora who are probably the least shocked of anyone who is following this story. You know, the world has sort of turned aghast at what's gone on in Istanbul, but in the case of many Saudis, Saudi dissidents or just Saudis who are aware of their government's ongoings in the world, they are perhaps the least surprised by this, although it is incredibly sobering and chilling and just a confirmation of their greatest fears. Same with the U.S. response—we don't hold out a lot of hope for substantial change.
AMY GOODMAN: Sarah Aziza, we want to thank you for being with us.
SARAH AZIZA: Thank you.
This is Democracy Now! In 20 seconds, we'll be going to Washington to a BuzzFeed exposé on an assassination team in Yemen made up of U.S. special forces, a U.S. mercenary firm. Stay with us.
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